Project Vanguard, or "How to use your grandmother's teeth"

[EasyPrey]

So, well, the Retribution and the Overlord.

You know their strength (i.e. giving range to the rangeless while being part of your battle line), you know their flaw (firepower, or rather the lack of it, especially up close).
And you know the problem that comes from this: Their long range WBs are pretty useless at range (if your enemy isn't stupid enough to come straight at you with a capital ship you get to throw the rather unimposing amount of two dice) and up close they're out-damaged by nearly every cruiser in your arsenal.

So while I've seen the one or the other idea how to remedy this by increasing their firepower at the cost of range I always found those suggestions wanting; long range batteries are the trademark of these ships, after all, and by taking them away completely the ships somehow lost character.

That's when I found a certain part of fluff in the back of my mind, about old fleet tactics where short ranged, high powered weapons batteries were king; this led to the thought "Hey, why don't I throw out some of the long range batteries and replace them with weapons from ye olden tymes?".

To cut a long story short ("Too late for that!" I hear you cry, but I couldn't care less ) here's what I came up with:

Retribution


Overlord


Let me know what you think!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Interesting ideas but I'd rather go simple and do FP16-18@45 cm for the Retribution and straight FP12@45 cm for the Overlord. Simpler.

[EasyPrey]

There is a certain beauty to simplicity, of course. But in this case I feel that simplicity would be taking it too far; it would over-simplify (is that even a real word? ^^) these ship classes, taking away that which in my view made them unique.

The Carnage does it, the Tyrant does it, and if I really started thinking about it I guess I'd find even more examples of ship classes with weapons batteries of differing ranges in the same fire arc; if they can do it, why should the Overlord and the Ret doing it be too complicated?

Give me some hints as to whether the sentiment that long range WBs are part of the Overlord's and Retribution's character holds true or if it is just in my head. I'd really like to know if it made sense to put more thought into that, if simplicity is preferred or if there even is no need for change at all.

[RayB HA]

To be honest these ship just need extra Wb's. +2 each side for Ret and +1 for the Overlord! Now that's simple! 

Cheers,

RayB

[mspaetauf]

Hi!

Am I the only one who thinks these ships are way too strong?

From the armour values and torpedoes I take it we are talking Imperial ships here?

So, especially true for the cruiser, these ships are too strong imo.

Also I would not give an Imperial fleet ships with so many long range WB (except from battleships maybe). It just does not fit the Imperial style.
At least that is what I think

cheers,
M

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There is a certain beauty to simplicity, of course. But in this case I feel that simplicity would be taking it too far; it would over-simplify (is that even a real word? ^^) these ship classes, taking away that which in my view made them unique.

What's oversimplifying with my proposal?

The Carnage does it, the Tyrant does it, and if I really started thinking about it I guess I'd find even more examples of ship classes with weapons batteries of differing ranges in the same fire arc; if they can do it, why should the Overlord and the Ret doing it be too complicated?

Why do you think I don't like the Tyrant? To make it effective, I need to spend the points for the range upgrade and even then, FP10 at 45 cm is only useful if you take another Tyrant or pair it with the Armageddon or Overlord. As for the Carnage, it's actually a ship best suited to fight up close with those FP16 WBs. For long ranges, I actually prefer the Murder.

Aside from that, your range bands are extremes. 60cm and 30 cm. Compare that to the Carnage's 60cm and 45cm and the Tyrant's 45cm and 30cm. Now I did the same extreme range bands on my homebrew Conqueror all lance BC. Gave it 60 cm dorsal lances and retaining the 30cm broadside lances but that's because lances are much more deadly than WBs and making an all lance BC with a potential of Str 6 and 45cm shortest lance range would be too much for both the rules and the fluff.

Give me some hints as to whether the sentiment that long range WBs are part of the Overlord's and Retribution's character holds true or if it is just in my head. I'd really like to know if it made sense to put more thought into that, if simplicity is preferred or if there even is no need for change at all.

Long range WBs are fine for the Retribution but the worry is that higher FP value might break it. For the Overlord, I would just prefer a ship that has good firepower at medium range bracket rather than forcing a long range value to it but reducing the firepower as a result.

To be honest these ship just need extra Wb's. +2 each side for Ret and +1 for the Overlord! Now that's simple! 

Cheers,

RayB

If the Retribution goes up to FP14, then I would be fine with it. I prefer 16 but with 14, it would definitely bring it back to my lists. As for the +1 to the Overlord, it's still too weak. Just revert it to typical battlecruiser stats at FP12@45 cm. That's a good and logical fix already.

[RayB HA]

On the Overlord: If you dropped the range to 45cm, with 10 WB's it would be a Tyrant with dorsals. Similar in the upgrade from the Murder to Hades.

I find that the Murder is rarely ever used as the Hades takes its role. This could happen with the Tyrant. However the Overlord is rarely ever used as is.

Also the 'Geddon is better suited to fill the 45cm band with the Tyrant.   

hmmm...

So the Overlord should have 60cm range IMO, but it will only be effective when paired with another Overlord. That being 4 lances and 16/18 Wb's at 60cm range.
This is quite comparable to the Ret.
Just like with the Ret you feel like you're wasting your Torps and Prow if using a single Broadside at range.

Now if the Overlord ignored the long range shift I might consider using it.

Cheers,

RayB

[horizon]

So in effect, Ray, it would be much better to have the Targetting Matrix on the Overlord then on the Mars!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

On the Overlord: If you dropped the range to 45cm, with 10 WB's it would be a Tyrant with dorsals. Similar in the upgrade from the Murder to Hades.

FP10? I didn't mention anything ab out FP10. My proposal was FP12 for the Overlord.

I find that the Murder is rarely ever used as the Hades takes its role. This could happen with the Tyrant. However the Overlord is rarely ever used as is.

Murder is rarely used because people rightly or not believe the Carnage to be the superior gunboat among the two. Personally, I prefer the Murder for my style of play. 1 Hades and 3 Murders are a nasty alpha strike combo.

If you make the Overlord FP12@45 cm, people will play it. Heck, I would play it. LOL!

Also the 'Geddon is better suited to fill the 45cm band with the Tyrant.   

Depends. If the Overlord had FP12, it would be a different matter. The Armageddon and Overlord would now be competing for the Tyrant's attention.

So the Overlord should have 60cm range IMO, but it will only be effective when paired with another Overlord. That being 4 lances and 16/18 Wb's at 60cm range.
This is quite comparable to the Ret.
Just like with the Ret you feel like you're wasting your Torps and Prow if using a single Broadside at range.

Which is why I don't like the Ret.

Now if the Overlord ignored the long range shift I might consider using it.

Cheers,

RayB

Yeah, the Mars' targeting matrix would be a better fit with the Overlord as Horizon says.

[RayB HA]

Well the targeting matrix is just a left shift, that's similar in effect to just having more weapons batteries but limiting the left most value.

If it ignored the long range mod then it would at least be useable at 60cm. The main problem is that it's so out of place in the IN fleet.


Str12 WB's at 45cm would be fine. I would want to leave the option of 60cm in though. So a reduction to Str 10 but 60cm range for 10pts would work for me.


However, I don't use IN BC's unless I've got a few extra points. I go the triple D route: Doms, Dics and Dauntlesses(T). With Emps...

Cheers,

RayB

[horizon]

Having left shift vs ignoring long range shift? Doh... The first option having an edge short ranged.

[RayB HA]

Well, if it's just ignoring the long range shift its not too powerful and it encourages you to stay at range, firmly entrenching it's role.

The leftshift, if not an optional upgrade, is just the same as more WB's so why bother with a rule just increase the WB's.

Cheers,

RayB

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

So, when is the HA fixing these ships? And Armada as well?

[Harrypotter]

Sorry for a spot of threadomancy on my first post but I was always wondering about how to make these ships viable choices.

I haven't play tested it but one possibility that occured to me would be to change the weapons batteries from 12L & 12R for the Retribution and 8L & 8R for the Overlord to 20L/R and (say) 16L/R for the Retribution and the Overlord respectively.

This way it would echo fighting vessels of old that could only really fight one side at a time due to crew limitations. In the scope of BFG it could be explained away as power limitations for the Plasma batteries etc.

In game terms it would make them feasible at range but not ridiculously overpowered close up as the likelyhood is they would need to split their WB's between port and starboard sides, or a skillful commander could use them to devastating effect out on the flanks (equally with your opponent trying to outflank them as quickly as possible), either way they would become i) more viable and ii) a focus point for a fleet that doesn't want to rely upon carrier based warfare etc.

This isn't a 'set in stone' proposal, more a principle for how to make them viable, i.e the L/R WB's.

I'd appreciate any thoughts people may have.

[Valhallan]

hows about:

Overlord:
Broadside:
8 WB at 60cm
4 wb at 45cm

6 torps
2 dorsal 60cm lances
[formula at 255]

-here it would be cool if the 'lord stayed with the same guns, but didn't have the long range shift; usually worth about 4 WB.-

Ret:
Broadside:
12 Wb at 60cm
4 WB at 45cm

9 torps
3 dorsal 60cm lances
[the formula at 360]

-solves everyone's problems, mid range slugger, long range support.