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Offline Phi

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Beginning Fleet Advice
« on: June 11, 2016, 01:46:09 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Firstly just wanted to say hey my name is Phi, I'm just getting into BFG (terribly late to the party). I was looking some advice for a starting fleet for the Imperial Navy and Eldar Corsairs.

I was thinking something like this:

81st Compliance Expedition (Attached to the 15th)

Lunar
Dominator
Tyrant
3 x Sword Frigate
3 x Cobra Destroyers

The Hawthorn Reavers (Biel-Tan affiliated)

Eclipse
Solaris
Aurora

Hellebores x 3

Is 750pts an ok starting size? Are the cruiser classes I have chosen ok? I just want too forces that will be fun to pair off against each other.

Thank you in advance!
Phi

Offline horizon

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2016, 11:11:06 AM »
Never to late for starting Battlefleet Gothic.

First of all make sure to check out FAQ2010 and pick the cherries you like.

The fleet will make for a fun-ish game if the Eldar player isn't a boring prick (which is a good Eldar playstyle.  ;) ).
Under 750pts the Eclipse is quite point heavy. And since the Imperial Navy doesn't run a carrier you can replace it with another Aurora or even better some more escorts (Hemlocks + Nightshades!).

The Imperial Navy is battery heavy. You might like to swap either the Dominator or Tyrant for a Gothic. Or a Lunar.
Well, with the official rules it is that batteries tend to rip Eldar apart. So if you focus soley on them the games may turn a little daft. So better to create a fleet that could take on all enemies and not only Eldar.

Offline Phi

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 07:37:59 AM »
Thank you very much for the comments, just what I needed clarifying.

So had a bit of a redesign.

Eldar:
Shadow
Aurora
Solaris
2 x Hellebore Frigates
3 x Hemlocks

Would it be better to try and run all light cruisers?

On the Imperial Navy Side:
Tyrant Cruiser (45cm Batteries)
Lunar
Lunar
Cobras x 3
Swords x 3

I am not heartset on a tyrant any ship class would be cool.

Another idea I had would be using a chaos list to represent a mixed Expedition/Legion assault carrier.

Chaos Fleet
Devastation Cruiser, Space Marine Crew, Chaos Lord w. One Re-Roll.
Murder Cruiser
Murder Cruiser

Idolator x 3

Thanks again,
Phi

Offline ale_box

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 12:40:38 PM »
In general I would say it is best to start practising with Imperial navy vs caos, eldar work so different that they play almost a different game

Offline Backfire

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 09:20:06 PM »
Yea, I am often bored when playing vs Eldar, it is very situational and matchup-oriented fleet and usually you either beat them handily or have no chance, little middle ground. Imperium vs Chaos, that's where the game usually works best.

Offline Phi

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 03:47:15 AM »
That's a shame to hear as I was hoping to tie this into a campaign 30k game.  Will give it a shot and see how it goes.

Offline Lotus

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 10:40:43 AM »
A can't say much about the navy, but at least something about corsair eldar:

Hemlock and Nightshade:

These are the strongest options by far. The Nightshades have a great damage output, especially if you are able to hit 2 enemy ships in a row, and you can use them in many different ways. On the other side: Nothing is more devastating as Hemlocks on lock-on orders. However, since you can't turn on lock-on orders, they should only use this order if you can be certain that there will be no thread left after this turn.

Arconite:

Since it's point cost got reduced to 55 (Faq 2010), they are worthwile, but in the most cases Nightshades and Hemlocks are superior. They are usefull against other eldar.

In theory, they are devastating in short range (15" or less), but since capital ships can explode when they go down - and eldar have no shields to soak up that damage - the risk of loosing your arconites if you use them in short range is very high.

Hellebore:

Back in the old days, they had a bad reputation because they are too expensive (75 points while you could have a nightshade and a hemlock for 80). Since you can buy them for 65 points, they are quite usefull, but i would not recomend using them in small games, because Hemlocks and Nightshades are still slightly superior. But: with increasing fleet size, you will have trouble finding enough terrain to hide in or behind, and then you will be glad to have some Hellebores, because they have the firepower of 2 escorts but use only the space of one escort each.

To make it short: Hellebores are great in big battles, but they should not be used as "core of the fleet", and they shine in greater battles.

Solaris:

Expensive. Could be usefull against other Eldar because they have destroyer speed which makes them faster then Arconites in some rare situations.

Aurora:

They have a "good reputation" because of their high firepower compared to low point costs. However, back then they were 10 points cheaper then 2 Hellebores, but since 2010 its the opposite.

it's a good ship, but don't expect too much: Eldar light cruiser will die instantly if they are hit.

Shadow:

in the old days, it was easy to explain the point cost for the shadow class: It had the firepower of 2 nightshade and 2 Arconite, and 2 Nightshades + 2 Arconite were 210 points. However, the Arconite was over-costed - that was fixed in the 2010 faq, but the shadow remained expensive.

I like the ship and i am using it from time to time, but because it's competition with other the other classes: It is expensive. This should not be a problem as long as you don't use many of them. Using one should be fine, especially in bigger battles. But i would not recomend them in smaller games.

Eclipse:

The best carrier eldar can get. A very good option. Not much to say here: As a carrier, you don't have to compare it directly with other ship classes.

Void Stalker:

Damn expensive, but the only 45" option if you are using only official rules. Would be too expensive when compared to other options, but because of the 45" weaponry and its launch bays, it is often worth the points. Definitive a good flag ship option. If youe are playin 2000 points ore more, you could field 2 of them - and two void stalkers have enough firepower to destroy a single ship in one turn at 45" without effort.



___________________________________

As long as you make sure the most ships in your list are Hemlocks and/or Nightshades, the fleet list should be ok.

The difficulty with the cruisers is the high chance of obtaining crittical hits. because of this, you can't play eldar cruisers like cruiseres of non-eldar factions; eldar have to use their cruisers as if they were escorts, because they will die if they are hit (or they will survive with X crittical effects and should retreat to deny victory points), and because they don't have shields and no asteroid-reroll, you can't fly through asteroid fields (of course you could, but trust me, just don't do it. The asteroids could be more dangerous to your cruisers than the enemy ships because your cruisers have no protection against asteroids. I lost quite a few cruisers to asteroids when i startet playing.... ^^ ).

So, you should not treat them as cruisers, treat them as overgunned, less mobile escorts. But don't forget that they can do teleport attacks.

________________________


I know it is difficult to obtain ships these days, and a fleet which uses escorts as core makes this task even more difficult, but if you don't have to stick to original gw-models, you could buy eldar escorts on shapeways. I have some Hemlocks and Arconites from shapeways, and i am satisfied. The arconites are bigger then the original (they have hellebore size), but thats ok for me.


______________________

If you want a cruiser-heavy list, you could use the reserve rules to include some craftworld eldar ships in your fleet. While Dragonships are damn expensive, the Wraithships are very good for their point cost. But good luck getting your hands on one of these...

(you can find material to make 3D-Paper models for them if you wan't to use them as proxy).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 10:50:30 AM by Lotus »

Offline horizon

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2016, 12:16:40 PM »
That's a shame to hear as I was hoping to tie this into a campaign 30k game.  Will give it a shot and see how it goes.
Oh. You can still play Eldar. They do play differently but if the Eldar player isn't a powergamer or complete beginner in games like this it will be enjoyable encounters.

Otherwise you can try the unoffcial fan rules called Eldar MMS. These change some mechanics to bring Eldar more in line with the other fleet but still make them unique.

Offline Lotus

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2016, 01:43:07 PM »
But MMS-Eldar loose their "race-specific main feature", wich is relying on speed to avoid being shoot at, and there are many changes wich doesn't make sense in my opinion (holofields doesn't work in close range for example). Opinions can be different, of course.

I would recomend Eldar MMS if you are playing a tournament where the players don't know against which fleets they will play, because somebody could end up without (or with "not enough") weapon batteries. But in a campaign or in single games where you know that you will be facing eldar or not, why should you abandon the official rules?


Offline horizon

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 02:24:20 PM »
But MMS-Eldar loose their "race-specific main feature", wich is relying on speed to avoid being shoot at, and there are many changes wich doesn't make sense in my opinion (holofields doesn't work in close range for example). Opinions can be different, of course.

I would recomend Eldar MMS if you are playing a tournament where the players don't know against which fleets they will play, because somebody could end up without (or with "not enough") weapon batteries. But in a campaign or in single games where you know that you will be facing eldar or not, why should you abandon the official rules?
Eldar under official rules do not use speed to avoid being shot at, they use a secondary move and turn rate to avoid being shot at. Technically the Eldar rules break core rule mechanics (moving ships in the ordnance phase), Eldar MMS lets Eldar move at (high speeds and good turns!) in the movement phase.
Holofields offer a better safe further away because it is a radar distortion mechanism. The closer you are the less effective it becomes.

But alas, I think Phi and his friends should try to official rules first and if they don't like them they can try Eldar MMS as an alternative.
Better then quitting a race all together. :)

Offline Lotus

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 10:43:58 PM »
In fact, eldar movement rules are included in the core rules. So, they are not breaking anything, they just use a different ruleset for their movement.

I don't agree on the Holofield part, since we are talking about alien technology here - only the original writer could decide how it works in fluff and rulewise. We don't know if its a radar distortion mechanism - it could be anything. We are talking about a setting where large vessels are traveling through space, where they use people with psychic powers to travel through and communicate through something called "warp space" while they are beinig watched by demons, and where some old undying man is wired into some device that burns an unimaginable number of people with psychic powers per day to funtion as something like a lighthouse. :b


Just to make sure nobody feels offended: I am sure the MMS-System works rulewise, and i am sure it is well balanced. its just nothing for me.

Offline Phi

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2016, 04:12:00 AM »
First of all I really appreciate the input from everyone, thank you.

Thanks especially for that run down Lotus, it helped me get my head around the fleet a lot more.  I didn't realise that Corsairs favoured escorts over larger ship classes for example. 

Models wise I was intending to convert light cruisers from dark eldar and craftworld jetbikes and cruisers from the Harlequin Jetbike frame.  I haven't come up with a plan for escorts yet,  I have sourced some Hellebores so once they arrive I can estimate sizes and convert some Hemlocks easily enough from leftover weapon sprues and engine bits.

Should be a fun project!

I will stick to the base rules for the moment and see how they pan out.  My only concern is having read more in that how polarising holofields are.  I think the 2+ is a tad severe for the amount of things it affects, but conversely (chaos range) batteries really mess it up.  However I may be overestimating their defences in my head as I imagine any lances/torps that get through are going to be often causing criticals...

Final Question,

If you guys were building a 30k Legion fleet, do you reckon a Chaos Armada outfitted with Space Marines is workable?  It seems a tad expensive to put marines on everything (not that you need to).

Once again, thanks for all the help,
Phi

Offline horizon

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 08:11:16 AM »
Eldar are pretty vulnerable to bombers as well. But long range batteries is their nemesis. (And my main bother with the Eldar defences in the official rules - it doesn't make sense*).

But Lotus is correct: the Eldar escorts are their main weapon be it official or unofficial rules. Hemlocks and Nightshades are excellent and the Aconite since the point drop also one of the best.
The visual is also cool: One cruiser and/or light cruiser flanked by many of the little deadly escorts.

As for the 30k fleet: just do it. A fleet based on a theme is always good and may influence your dice for the better. True story.


* @ Lotus. As above, the Eldar, a most advanced race has literally no defense against the most simple weapon other races can make (1 dice has a chance of destroying an escort at 50% chance; At 60cm). That doesn't sound like a dying race thing to do to me. ;)

Offline Lotus

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2016, 11:42:17 AM »
@Phi: When you see the Hellebore, you will se the lance. Hemlocks are just a lance with solar wings, and the official models have some variation themselves, so everything shoud be fine as long as no escort gets bigger than the hellebore. The Hellebore is the largest escort.

While lances, Torpedoes and Bombers are often blocked by the field, every successsful block creates a blast marker, wich could damage the ship the following turn when it tries to move. Bombers can be efficient, because you don't have to form them in waves against eldar, since eldar ships have no turrent value, there is no benefit from forming waves. This means the ship has to make a separate roll for every bomber, which increases the chance to fail a save.

On the legion question: As Horizon said, do it. BTW: Marines increase your boarding chances. Boarding is often inferior to shooting, but it is a almost save way to get rid of an enemy ship without causing it to explode - and the player who holds the field at the end of the battle will earn additional renown points for each hulk on the field. So, maybe you could get some invested points back when the battle seems to run in your favor.

@Horizon: Yes, this weakness feels wrong. But if we dig a bit deeper:

At first, the corsair eldar are pirates. Their ships are not the "eldar golden age ships", they are refittet variants, refittet for their pirating needs: They are fast and lightweight constructions, able to outrun the ships of other races. They need to be fast, take what they can, and then they have to vanish. A battle on even terms is not where this ships should be used fluffwise, the corsairs are not an empire or a craftworld.

So, if we want to dig further, we should look at the ship classes originally constructed for partizipating in fleet battles: An these are the Wraithship and Dragonship class (Shadowhunters are craftworld patrol craft). At first, these ships have a higher armor rating of 5, which means that you need to roll 3 dice to get 1 hit, opposed to 2 dice for 1 hit - the "actual warships" have an 50% increase in weapon battery defense when compared to corsair vessels, and then there is the holofield-collum shift. Yes, they still can obtain critical hits easy, and there are no deflector shields, and they have a smaller mass than imperial ships - but they retain their mobility.

The next thing we have to take into account: Every wraithship or dragonship uses some kind of ordnance, some kind of weapon which could be used in long-range combat, and the mobility + speed to make sure they don't have to get into direct fire range.

Of course, you have to get in direct fire range ingame, because ordnance allone won't bring you victory. But this changes if we take the next thing into account:

When these ship classes where created, the eldar dominated the galaxy. Imagine a battle against a craftworld eldar force, but you are outnumbered. In this case, it would be impossible to touch the ships. This could also explain why their natural enemy of the old days (c'tan/Necrons) droped the ordnance weapons entirely in favor of 360° weaponry which could destroy lager amounts of ordnance.

if we look again at the holofield rules, we see that the field offer great protection against every weapon type which can be used in long-ranged combat: Ordnance and lances - the weapon types which would be most likely used in long-range engagement (because weapon batteries are getting inaccurate at long range).

Here, we can still ask: When they have been this superior fluffwise, why did they not just ad some deflector shields and turrent just in case? To protect against unforseen stuff?

Because of arrogance. The eldar are still arrogant of other species, even as a dying race, now try to imagine their arrogance against other species when they were the dominant race, in an age where "suns and stars die at their command" (i am not sure if this quote is correct, i am only remember the german quote at this moment). We are talking about a race which has no problem in pulling a sun into the webway if the need it, a race which obliterates whole civilisations because some farseer thinks this has to be done to prevent something unfortunate for their craftworld in the future, a race which kills humans without warning for setting their feet unknowingly on a maiden world...

Their arrogance has caused their fall by creating "she, who thirsts", and now they have to rely on technology which may be extremly advanced, but which was never intended to be used in fleet battles on even terms or in fleet battles at all. Its like opening a can with a knife. You can do it, but it would be more easy to use an opener instead.

Here we can ask: But why didn't they try to adapt?

They are trying - by inventing the ghostships. These were invented to address the "we are a dying race" problem and the "we have no ship class which is able to take hits from wide-spread-weaponry". Rulewise, ghostships loose the crittical hit weakness, but retain all defensive benefits.



« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:47:35 AM by Lotus »

Offline Phi

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Re: Beginning Fleet Advice
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2016, 04:12:29 AM »
So considering everyone's advice I have settled on two 750pts fleets for the mini campaign, ordered the models and will set about building them. Please feel free to hurl Comments and Criticisms!

112th Expedition Fleet, seconded to the 15th
42nd Jovian Battlegroup "Stormhearts" (Terran Navy), 750pts

Capital Ships
Hammer of Reason - Dominator Class Cruiser, Power Ram
Devotion - Lunar Class Cruiser
Fortitude - Lunar Class Cruiser

Escorts
4th Jovian Hounds - Cobra Destroyer Squadron (Size 3)
27th Jovian Gallants - Sword Frigate Squadron (Size 3)


Tres Brujas from the Scarlet Thorns (Eldar Corsairs) 750pts

Princess Sariel Evensong (Captain of the Tuath De-Isha)

Capital Ships
Cailleach's Cry - Aurora Light Cruiser
Tuath De-Isha - Aurora Light Cruiser
Morrigan - Solaris Light Cruiser

Escorts
Thorns of Morai-Heg - Hemlock Destroyer Squadron (Size 3)
Faolchu's Judges - Nightshade Destroyer Squadron (Size 3)

Currently building these guys up. I will be also throwing together a 15th legion (1k Sons)  fleet from the Chaos List, but need to secure some models. Was thinking sonething like this:

Devastation Cruiser w. Space Marine Crew
Murder w. Space Marine Crew
Slaughter w. Space Marine Crew
Infidel Destroyer Squadron (Size 3)

All of this is for Late era great crusade/early heresy which might explain some choices. Would have lived a more attack carrier heavy theme, like a styx, devastation and somethinglike a carnage, but without a light cruiser for chaos there's not a lot of room if I am going to have escorts (Im not even considering marks alas). Any advice for a space marine chaos fleet at 750 would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!
Phi