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Author Topic: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet  (Read 4379 times)

Offline maxxev

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Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« on: September 15, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »
Using the "tau protection fleet" rules could you please suggest tactics for a fleet such as the bellow:

I'm very new to the game having only played 1 game so far (using an imperial fleet)

Stronghold
Stronghold
Bastion
Protector
Protector

Xenos Escort x5 (+1 sheld option)
1x Reroll

Fleet cost 1,600.

Any help / advice tactics would be great please.



Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 06:23:28 PM »
This fleet is not legal. Firstly, since the restriction citing that Demiurg Commerce Vessels have to outnumber non-Demiurg cruisers is in the cruiser section then it might apply strictly to the options available in the cruiser section. So you'd need to have more Bastions/Citadels than non-Bastion/Citadel cruisers. To be honest, since this is a Demiurg list, this seems to be probable. However, apart from that, you'd need 4 cruisers to field 2 Strongholds. Also, 1600 pts is a really odd size game to be playing. Just saying.

Having said all that, I'll advise as best I can. For a start, you'll want your Strongholds to be taking the brunt of the enemy fire, so play them forward. The Bastion is overpriced and can be easy VPs for the opponent, so don't expose it. The Protectors are really quite fragile so you don't want to expose these ships. Given they've got 90° turns and can bring all their fire to bear in the one arc they don't need to be positioned in the middle of the enemy, so they can safely be positioned as half-back flankers.

The Xenos vessels really are overpriced. They're pretty much a Firestorm and Firestorms are overpriced (being worth no more than 35 pts). You get some range, but this is pretty rubbish since it only applies to 40% of the weaponry and even then this is reduced due to the column shift for range. So the only real bonus over a Firestorm is the extra shield. Therefore to make the ship at all worthwhile you have to take advantage of this. That means you have to force your opponent to shoot at them. So use them aggressively, get up close and personal and punish the opponent for not shooting at them by liberal use of LO.

Since the lances only fire to the fore arc this typically will mean some increased return fire (as per the Firestorm), which is fine since you've got the extra shields. However, it also means that there's the possibility that the enemy will be able to manoeuvre out of your fore arc to then ignore your escorts (since you'll have to turn to fire you'll not be locking on). This means that he'll be free to take out your Protectors. I know that's what I would do. I would send in some attack craft to knock out a couple and then manoeuvre to avoid LO. This way I wouldn't waste any direct fire on them and simply whittle them away with AC.

I would probably recommend the targeting system on the Xenos escorts for this fleet. This is because you really want your opponent shooting at your Strongholds and to a lesser extent your Bastion so as to power up the prow cutting beam (and because the Strongholds can take a fair bit). This upgrade would allow your Protectors to take one flank and your escorts the other. It frees your escorts to manoeuvre as you choose, since the enemy will count as closing regardless of whether they're abeam or even moving away. This way you use your Demiurg ships aggressively, put them in the middle of the fleet to maximise their fire and bring up the rest for targets of opportunity.

Note: doing this makes the escorts much more attractive targets to the enemy, so they'll be more likely to target them instead of the Protectors. This does protect your fragile capital ships a bit better but the Xenos vessels will not be tough to direct fire of course. In which case I'd suggest liberal use of BFI for them. You want to keep them alive till you can get them on the enemy's six.

Offline maxxev

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 07:56:06 PM »
I may be miss interpreting but the fleet list states

 "Your fleet may include no more than twelve cruisers. Demiurg Commerce Vessels must outnumber all non-Demiurg cruisers combined."
As the Stronghold IS a commerce vessel I have 3 vs. 2 so should be legal there.

The I do need one more cruiser though..... :( damn (I put together the list quickly at work so didn't have time to read the small print).

What do the abbreviations you have used mean please (LO, BFI)?

Thank you for the rest of the comments.

I have a further 3 Bastions and one protector, can you make suggestions as to what I should use instead? (e.g. should I take 2 strongholds and 4 Citadels or something?). I thought the protectors with their 6+ (until critical) front armour, 6 hits, 2 shields and guided missiles, plus armour mantas would be a good choice?

I thought about the endeavor but no miniatures.

Would you suggest any of the lists other escorts instead of the Xenos? (or none at all and instead take more cruisers?)

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 02:12:25 AM »
I may be miss interpreting but the fleet list states

"Your fleet may include no more than twelve cruisers. Demiurg Commerce Vessels must outnumber all non-Demiurg cruisers combined."
As the Stronghold IS a commerce vessel I have 3 vs. 2 so should be legal there.

Yes, poorly written rule. I'm reasonably sure that it's meant to read Demiurg cruisers must outnumber non-Demiurg cruisers. Otherwise you could run 6 Strongholds, 4 Bastions and 8 non-Demiurg cruisers and 3 Warspheres as well as up to 18 non-Demiurg escorts. Not looking all that much like a Demiurg fleet when they're outnumbered nearly 3 to 1.

If this is how it's meant to be read then the rule should simply be written "must have more Demiurg capital ships than non-Demiurg capital ships".

Quote
The I do need one more cruiser though..... :( damn (I put together the list quickly at work so didn't have time to read the small print).

Yarp.

Quote
What do the abbreviations you have used mean please (LO, BFI)?

Lock On and Brace For Impact.

Quote
I have a further 3 Bastions and one protector, can you make suggestions as to what I should use instead? (e.g. should I take 2 strongholds and 4 Citadels or something?). I thought the protectors with their 6+ (until critical) front armour, 6 hits, 2 shields and guided missiles, plus armour mantas would be a good choice?

Would you suggest any of the lists other escorts instead of the Xenos? (or none at all and instead take more cruisers?)

The Protectors aren't bad, they have good firepower and are very manoeuvrable for their punch. They're just not terribly sturdy. For that price other races will be getting full 8 hit line cruisers. So they should be used to supplement the battle line rather than as mainstay ships.

Unfortunately Demiurg ships are overpriced. The Bastion is a good 20 pts overpriced, and the Citadel is 5 pts over, possibly more. So this would be a viable choice but if you used Citadels instead of Bastions then they would suffer the same problems as the Protector.

I'm finding it hard to formulate recommendations because you're at a very odd point level; 1600 pts. Why have you chosen this amount? It is more common to use a 1500 pt fleet or sometimes a 2000 pt fleet (rarely a 1750 pt fleet) but never have I seen a 1600 pt fleet.

If you're looking for a 1500 pt list I'd recommend:

+1 Re-roll - 25 pts
1 Strongholds - 350 pts
4 Bastions - 1020 pts
2 Xenos Vessels - 100 pts
Total - 1495 pts


At 2000 pts:

+1 Re-roll - 25 pts
2 Strongholds - 700 pts
4 Bastions - 1020 pts
5 Xenos Vessels - 250 pts
Total - 1995 pts


Simply remove the escorts for a 1750 pt fleet. For a 1600 pt fleet you could go:

2 Strongholds - 700 pts
2 Bastions - 510 pts
1 Citadel - 185 pts
1 Protector - 185 pts
Total - 1580 pts


Note: the Bastion really is overpriced and by a long way too. See if you can't convince your opponent to let you play it cheaper.

Of course, the above lists follow the spirit of the rule, having less than half the cruisers as Demiurg. If you're willing to go by the letter of the rule rather than the spirit then you can in fact take a Tau Kor'or'vesh list that looks like this:

Aun'el - 50 pts
2 Strongholds - 700 pts
2 Bastion - 510 pts
1 Citadel - 185 pts
1 Castellan - 50 pts
Total - 1495 pts


This is allowable because there's no limit on the number of Demiurg ships allowed in the Kor'or'vesh fleet and you can have 1 Stronghold per Bastion.

Offline maxxev

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 08:05:47 AM »

Aun'el - 50 pts
2 Strongholds - 700 pts
2 Bastion - 510 pts
1 Citadel - 185 pts
1 Castellan - 50 pts
Total - 1495 pts


This is allowable because there's no limit on the number of Demiurg ships allowed in the Kor'or'vesh fleet and you can have 1 Stronghold per Bastion.

I thought this new fleet list was a "revised" one, I figured that the expense of the Bastion was now because of the revised cutting beam rules, you still believe that the Bastion is too much?

True but the Demiurg will be running away once they get to 4 damage :(.

Thanks for the advice again.

Offline horizon

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 08:12:36 AM »
Heh, revised does not necessarily mean correct. ;)
Many views, many opinions.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 08:16:17 PM »
I thought this new fleet list was a "revised" one, I figured that the expense of the Bastion was now because of the revised cutting beam rules, you still believe that the Bastion is too much?

I'm not a fan of this revision myself. The ability to extend the range detracts from the mining laser concept to my mind. However, even considering this ability there's no reason why the Bastion should be differentially effected by it. It is still internally overpriced. Also, this ability is not worth anywhere near 20 pts, so the Bastion is still externally overpriced.

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True but the Demiurg will be running away once they get to 4 damage :(.

Not only that, but you'd have to place the Aun'el on the Castellan and you'd be unable to use his re-roll on the Demiurg ships. Meaning you're wasting 50 pts just there, as well as the waste of points that is the Castellan, not to mention the points wasted in the Bastions.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 10:25:07 PM »
If you want an all Demiurg fleet, just ignore the rules, lower the points costs, and do it your own way.  BFG is good like that ;)
Unless playing non consenting folks.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet tactics for Demiurg based fleet
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 11:03:39 PM »
If you want an all Demiurg fleet, just ignore the rules, lower the points costs, and do it your own way.  BFG is good like that ;)
Unless playing non consenting folks.

^This. I'd say that a couple of Strongholds should be viable in a 1500 pt list, along with 3 Bastions and some re-rolls.