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Author Topic: Escorts in BFG  (Read 4139 times)

Offline Thinking Stone

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Escorts in BFG
« on: July 11, 2011, 04:42:58 AM »
I have recently been thinking quite a bit about the role of escorts in BFG. Not being too sure on the outcome of the previous discussions on escort pricing, but I seem to remember that many posters considered escorts too expensive and not useful enough (though clearly not the only perspective!). I've been playing Star Wars Empire at War recently, and it struck me that in the space battles, most of my fleets consisted of similar ships to those used in most BFG games (depending on race): big capital ships to kill big stuff, medium capital ships for ship-to-ship fights and a few escorts (maybe 3 for a fleet, but in Empire at War you build separate attack craft squadrons) to primarily protect against bombers/other attack craft (attacking capital ship hardpoints = critical systems) and to lend weight of fire to the larger ships otherwise. Hopefully, this sounds familiar to most players.... The major difference is that fighters (being a Star Wars game) are a much greater threat to capital ships but the Empire in particular (whose capital ships spawn their own attack craft squadrons during a battle) seems to be a good model for the 'Space Opera' style of battle similar to BFG.

Thus, especially since escorts are designed to escort larger ships (surely including an anti-attack craft role), I propose that escorts be given some extra bonus against attack craft. This would make escorts a much more viable choice (since they would no longer be considered just smaller versions of gun-cruisers that come in squadrons) as well as giving the player more options in terms of what type of escorts they prefer (e.g. gun boat, torpedo boat, anti-AC, lance boat or a combination) and what kinds of cruisers they prefer (e.g. carrier fleet for offensive AC or defensive AC with escorts to compliment either role, gunship fleet with escorts to protect against overpowering AC).

I think that this would solidify the role of escorts (which, to be honest, don't generally get fielded so that they kill the most enemy ships, at least in my experience—cry out if you disagree!) and prevent AC fleets from dominating all enemies lacking carriers, making gunship fleets (supposedly the main type of fleet in the 41st millenium anyway, according to other posters, notably avoiding the emphasis on Star Wars-esque fighter duels dominating the game) much more feasible. Note that I do not suggest escorts be entirely converted into anti-ACmobiles: I think that they should retain their current roles in addition to anti-AC options.

Any thoughts for the Thinking Stone? (I will even consider contradicting opinions!!  :) )

Offline Trickstick

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 11:47:55 AM »
I think that escorts look harder to use to their full potential than cruisers. However, I'm saying this when my only experiece is a chaos vs chaos intro game. I'm going to have my first real game tonight, I'll post again after I see how my three swords do.

The thing that appeals to me about the swords is the firepower and mobility they have.
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Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 01:47:31 PM »
Hello Trickstick (again),
Yes, I also have rather limited experience with escorts and their roles with fleets in general when compared to most posters in the forum (those masters are indubitably greater admirals than I) but the mobility and firepower is certainly very attractive to me, too.

I think that Chaos escorts are interestingly different in role to the Imperial ones, too, because they act more as separate entities that perform roles by themselves, rather than primarily having an escort role as the Imperial ones generally do. That's not to say that they don't escort the cruisers; it's more to say that they can do their own thing a lot more thoroughly than the Imperial ones can. At least in my opinion.

I personally also like Firestorms because their lances are good at killing other escorts (especially Necron ones...), something other Imperial ships are not so good at. I usually use quite a few escorts, with two Cobra squadrons (3 Cobras gives you a capital ship spread of torpedoes, after all...), a Firestorm squadron of 2 and a Sword squadron of two or three. :)

The main problems I have with escorts is that they die alarmingly easily! It has always seemed strange to me that (especially when considering a campaign situation) while an admiral will consider disengaging after most of their capital ships are crippled, most don't really care when their escort squadrons are crippled or destroyed! It seems that there is a lack of respect for the fact that an escort ship is still a really significant amount of military force when considered in the light of civilian affairs and patrols.... But, from a gameplay point of view, BFG is more about fleet actions, so this isn't such a bad thing, except in campaigns. I suppose that you can say that, like hulks, escorts are sometimes not destroyed but are rather reduced by a lack of crew in a mauled wreck, drifting in a cloud of debris.

Escorts are also very vulnerable to attack craft (although the FAQ2010, if I recall correctly, made them more survivable against assault boats), which although is sensible to a certain extent, seems to imply that the better hull coverage with turrets and probably better small target tracking does not make escorts any more effective against attack craft. See how you go, though.

Offline Bryantroy2003

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 11:53:15 AM »
Well I wrote the Limante article for Warp Rift, and ive used all escort fleets so ill share the top three positive and negitive things that my near decade of using them has taught me.

1. Decide right away weather or not you want them to *finish* or *screen*, two entirely diffrent roles, for two entirely diffrent escort types. IE: The cobra is great at screening due to the ordinace and cheapness with which you can purchase them. But they arent more them mediocre in finishing due to the number of variables involved with their torps, and 1 mesely weapons battery.

The more likely finisher will be the Manta/Firestorm/Sword/Nova/Gladius/Any other gunship escort you find. The reason being is very likely in just 2 or 3 of these things you will find a full cruiser broadside's worth of firepower with far more flexibilty due to their very nature and manouverability. You may have trouble with blastmarkers and celestial phenomena if you arent careful with your caps, but escorts are far more forgiving in speed as well as manouverability. Thus allowing them to skirt the edge or hang out in the rear and charge forward to cripple/kill anything previously weakend by your Line ships.

2. These suckers are fast, lets face it 30cm + is a pretty great opportunity to cause some havoc and open up opportunites that capitals simply cant find, minus the trecherously good slaughter that is, or the necrons too I supose but ive got other reservations with them that dont belong here. With that speed comes a wealth of tactical options, and while most of them dont use the escorts to their *intended* role in the fleet, they are still there to throw off your opponents own plan or just do something fun. Ever seen 3 corba's board a devestation and actually cause a crit? I managed it once, next turn they all died to AB's but thats neither here nor there the fire was caused and much annoyance was had when he couldnt put it out.

3. They pretty generally are paperthin, minus marines and necrons usually, and cant go toe to toe with their more contemporary cousins in the caps while expecting to win. But due to the sheer numbers of them  you can crank you, you could hypotheticly give that enemy cruiser those easy vp's in order for your own larger elements to secure others that it might have interfeered with. True you arent likely to meanigfully hurt the opposition in this case unless you have a 6 str squadron of heavy escorts (IE: Those costing in the 40pts + range) and their firepower tapers off unerringly quick. But this tactical option can save your bacon by spliting their firepower when they need it concentrated the most. And while you are depending on them to take the bait, you could always lock on and make them remember what escorst can do unmolested.



Now for the bad stuff.

1. They are far to vunerable to attack craft. True the recent revised FAQ's and general outlook have made them more survivable, but they are still laughably vunerable to it. The only way to secure some safety is also a detriment to their again, weak surviability. Base to base contact can aleviate ac problems, but then exposes you to enemy gunnery to wreck havoc with you.

2. Unless you use them as an outrider formation away from the main fleet, usually not a good idea, they will have their speed dictated by much slower caps. Thus they usually cant get far, fast, without breaking the cohesion of the fleet and destroying your chances to use them most effectivly. Thus their own pace of battle unlike the caps, is direceted by friendly action, rather then the enemy's.

3. Lastly, they are pretty far down on your totem pole for Special Orders, because unless its a 6 str escort carrier/Cobra squadron(or equivilent ordinance boats elsewhere) you generally want your caps to go first and likely one of em will eff things up by keeying in the wrong radio channel and the admiral will spend 15minutes screaming at the incompetent moron for doing so. Thus they are a shotgun weapon system in all but the rarest cases, used effectivly at their best for one turn, and an after thought from then on.



None of the above are definitive, I must have/never have escorts in my fleet points, because its all due to your own style of play that dictates that. But when I pull out my 120 escorts to tangle with his 10 caps, my opponent begins to wonder if he can possibly kill enough of them before I L/O and take out almost assuredly 3 of his ships on the opponening alpha. True brace can muddle things up, but thats why you hold off overwhelming firepower on a single target and basicly whittle it down with 1/4 or 1/3 of the total you could have put against and to force a brace, if they dont, hurt them more until they do. Dont ever tell them they should brace, let them keep shooting them selves in the foot.


Either way, those are the main points, but definatly not the only ones to be made where the tin cans are concerened. I love em, some hate em, but they are undeniably useful little buggers if you take the initative and make them react to you.
You actually read this stuff?

Offline Koshi

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 03:14:24 PM »
Good Post Bryan.

But who has 120 escorts? I mean that I have 36 imperial escorts. Not more. And my guys with whom I play tend to have more less. Even our Eldar player.

Offline horizon

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 07:14:42 PM »
quick:
currently escorts are awesome if used well.

Tactics!

Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 07:14:08 AM »
I agree with Koshi: excellent tactics Bryantroy2003. I've always wondered how all-escort fleets went....

But do you think that escorts are too vulnerable to attack craft? While I agree that they should be minced by them in some circumstances (e.g. when swamped by bombers and assault boats!) I have always considered one of their 'escorting' duties to be lending some kind of defence against attack craft (without removing their current abilities which are (quoting horizon) "awesome if used well.").

The idea is to make escorts better at defending against attack craft (with the flow on effect of less dominating attack craft fleets allowing more varied fleet choices without requiring lots of carriers).

Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2011, 07:15:05 AM »
(2nd post used just to make it easier to read everything)
My reasoning is that while battleships kill big things and do cool stuff that cruisers cannot (and so on), and cruisers do the main fighting (etc.), escorts help and protect the bigger ships. In most depictions of SciFi space battles, larger ships are quite vulnerable to attack craft because of their size/focus on other aspects of the battle. For example, a turret rating of 4 on a battleship is very respectable but the thing is simply so big that it can hardly defend itself entirely from bombers that always seem to find the weak spot. Escorts are small enough that, even though their turret ratings are low, they can more effectively protect themselves from swarms of attack craft (while still retaining fragility). This is represented a little in BFG at the moment, but I feel that escorts don't counteract attack craft enough with the current rules design. My preliminary idea is to count escorts as having a fighter in CAP with them at all times, which acts like a fighter in all respects except that it always comes back next turn.

What does everyone think? Am I crazy?

Offline Trickstick

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2011, 04:53:46 PM »
I had an idea about esorts and attack craft. What if escorts added their turret rating when in base contact, instead of just adding +1?
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Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2011, 01:52:12 AM »
I've been thinking about that too, Trickstick (I presume you mean when massing turrets :)), although it still leaves the escort squadrons massing turrets quite vulnerable to gunnery then. Maybe if escort squadrons could support each other with turrets from a distance (like with the fleet defence turrets) but just on their squadron? So, an example:
Scenario: 3 Sword class frigates are escorting a Lunar class cruiser. 1 Sword is in base contact with Lunar, so when massing turrets the Lunar gets 2 (original) plus 2 from Sword. Counts 2 for bomber suppression, as normal.
Each of the Swords in the squadron get 2 (original) plus 2 from other Swords (still count 2 for bomber suppression, as normal). I thought if escorts provided +2 per Sword,  it would be too ridiculous (6 turrets!!) and not as realistic.
Sword in base contact with Lunar gets 2 (original) + 2 from Swords in squadron (per the regulation that only escorts can give supporting turrets, not sure if this went into the rules fix-up).

What do you think? It does give escorts additional defence against attack craft (but it might need a distance limit, e.g. within 10 cm escort gains the turret support but this makes it more complicated). I think it is reasonable that escort squadrons can support each other in this way because they are small and manouevrable when compared with capital ships and so can protect each other better).

Have you looked at horizon's idea in the Ordnance - another idea... thread?

Offline horizon

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 06:34:07 AM »
No, the gunnery 'problem' from massed turrets should not exist if we return to v1.0 blastmarker rules.

That means that you place blastmarkers in line of fire and cannot move them so they touch two bases. Blastmarkers do not count as allround.

Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 03:22:20 AM »
Hello horizon,
In this case, it seems very logical to do the v1.0 blast marker rules, which (at my end) we have nominally followed except for the all around effect. It is probably also sensible for escort squadrons to be flying close to each other. Do you like the v1.0 rules?

What do you think of the escorts supporting each other with their full number of turrets? Should that be extended to capital ships? Oh, and what was the eventual outcome on whether or not capital ships could mass turrets with each other (i.e. whether it was only escorts that could mass turrets with capital ships)?

Offline Trickstick

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 03:33:29 AM »
I actually think that full turret support would be quite unfair. Having six turrets would make bombers useless, and you could get this quite easily.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor

Offline Thinking Stone

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Re: Escorts in BFG
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 04:38:40 AM »
I agree that 6 turrets would be very unfair! But recall that massed turrets do not increase the turret rating of the vessel being attacked, they only increase the number of shots you can make before they perform the run. The idea is that this has the effect of protecting escorts against smaller ordnance threats whilst still allowing ordnance to wipe out escorts once they get past the turrets. Afterall, 1 bomber squadron can also easily destroy an escort. Does this make it seem more reasonable?

What about supporting capital ships? The idea there is to make escorts better at protecting capital ships from ordnance, thereby giving escorts a very valuable role in protecting their larger capital ships.

By the way: you've broken the fast reply record! Hooray!!!