How important is Leadership?

[left of west]

Here's a strategy question I've been mulling over for a while: how valuable are leadership upgrades?

For example, consider this bog-standard Chaos fleet:

Carnage
Carnage
Carnage
Devastation
Devastation
Devastation w/ Warmaster
Acheron

That comes to 1400 points, even.  With your remaining 100 points (presuming a 1500 point fleet) you could:

bring three Iconoclasts (or two of whatever that 45 point escort is called--the Idolator?)
upgrade a Devastation to a Styx (gaining, essentially, two bits of ordnance) and bring a re-roll on the Warmaster,
bring two re-rolls on the Warmaster (re-roll and Mark of Tzeentch) as well as a Lord with his own MoTz re-roll to put on a Carnage squadron. 
B

Is it worth giving up all those extra re-rolls for a handful of escorts?  Some extra re-rolls for a couple of extra bits of ordnance?  Or is leadership important enough that it's worth spending 200 points (100 of which is mandatory) of a 1500 point fleet on it?

Thoughts?

[Phthisis]

Check out Plaxors fleet lists.  Chaos warmasters are cheaper and so are marks. 

Doesn't the WM have to be on the Acheron because it's a heavier class of ship?

Chaos has another way to boost LD: Chaos Marines.  They are worth it on at least one Dev.

I say go for the extra ships.  I use CSM to boost my LD and squadron as much as I can to keep the number of Ld rolls I need to make to conduct fleet manouvers.  Adding rerolls in addition to marks on your WM can easily rival the cost of a light cruiser or escort squadron.  All those points in one ship is too many eggs in one basket for me. 

[lordgoober]

No.  The Chaos Warmaster goes on the most expensive ship in the fleet.

[horizon]

"Plaxor's document"

is unofficial so you need to verify with your group/opponents to make use of it.

Aside of finding above fleet not cool I would add the chaos space marines.

[left of west]

Thanks for the responses.  Two points, though:

First, Chaos has no light cruisers (unless you're using homebuilt stuff which, for the purposes of this discussion, let's presume we're not) so the only extra ship option is two or three escorts. 

Second, in that particular list, the 35 points for Marines is an awkward number: what would you use to fill the remaining 65 points?  Two Iconoclasts?  Two re-rolls and upgrade a Carnage to a second Acheron?

[Phthisis]

I thought the rule was changed do the WM had to be on the ship of the highest class in the FAQ. 

From the list I have to assume that the Devs are all squadroned and the Carnages are all squadroned.  With CSM your Dev squadron will be at LD 10.  You have a pretty decent chance of getting Ld 9 for your Carnages.  With a max 3 LD rolls per turn I don't think you will be having much trouble with leadership.  Two Iconoclasts seems like a waste of points to me as well.

How about change one Carnage to an Acheron, a lord for the Carnage squadron and a Warmaster reroll.  Then yoy shouldn't have to worry about LD ever.

[left of west]

Seems like a reasonable option.  Do you really think that a +1 leadership on one ship in the Carnage squadron is better than a third re-roll, though?

I mean, let's say it's squadron of three devastations with Warmaster, CSM, and re-roll.  Two Carnages and two Acherons either make one big squadron or two reasonable two-ship squadrons.  If you play the former, the lord seems reasonable.  If you play the latter, the re-roll seems better, since either of those squadrons can use it. 

[Phthisis]

Good point.  I don't think I'd put the Carnages and Acherons all in one squadron since the Acherons are long range and the Carnages are better up close.  The rerolls would probably be bettter.  If you roll a 9 for LD for one of the Carnages you'd have just wasted 25pts anyway.

[left of west]

Yeah, I think that sounds about right, Pthisis. 

So, in a more general sense, at what point do you stop buying leadership upgrades?  When you could trade them for a whole 'nother ship of at least light cruiser size?  When you're playing a fleet with worthwhile escorts, and can trade leadership upgrades for those?  Is there some minimum number of re-rolls you want in a fleet of a given size (number of squadrons) in general?

What would your general guidelines for leadership importance be?

[RCgothic]

Rerolls can be useful depending on your fleet list, but I otherwise go for the minimum spend on commanders - my philosophy is max ships!

The only exception is if I'm going carrier/ordnance heavy. Re-rolls are then more important because without them your ships stand a far greater chance of doing nothing. Failing your first of five carrier reload checks could neuter your entire fleet. In this case 2 or even 3 rerolls may come in handy.

[Phthisis]

I agree with RCG.  More ships!

As I play a fluff fleet based around Death Guard CSM I take several carriers.  I put them all in one squadron where I can RO with only one command check.  Since al least one ship has CSM they usually have high Ld.
Of course, this may not be the best idea since it can keep me from bracing if I ever need to.

[Valhallan]

i think its straightforward enough to say that first: leadership becomes more and more important with the number of points you play. and second: leadership is a significant factor to how you plan to squadron your ships.

as most people seem to play 1500 points... so maybe 6-8 ships, leadership is pretty negligible unless you spam ordy of some sort. however, in the 2000-2500 point range, good LD on your ordy squadrons and some rerolls are more necessary. if i ever had space and ships to play 3000+ points, I'd try for LD9 and rerolls on the most important squadrons and 2-3 extra fleet wide rerolls - just to keep things running smoothly until maybe halfway through the game when casualties make for less checks.

[Zhukov]

Other things to consider would be terrain. If you play with a lot of asteroids (or other nifty terrain) on the table, then high leadership with a few re-rolls may be a good thing for gaining tactical advantages.

With that 100 pts, you can also purchase 3 Cobra's.

-Zhukov