Battlefleet Mandragora

[BaronIveagh]

This is a rough draft of something I've been brewing since i saw the IA 10 information on the older ships such as the Charybdis class.  It's not quite balanced yet, and does not play quite like other fleets.  Note: attempts to use Smotherman = fail here.  It's, technically, an IN fleet, but it's not a normal IN by any means.  The ship selection process sort of resembles Tau, but plays... differently.  I went with Mandragora as the fleet as it's a sector well known in the Imperium for being a very bizarre and ill omened place and that isn't really trusted by the Imperium at large.

All the ships used are either fluffed to predate the advent of the 'modern' IN or are variants thereof, with the exception of the Tempest, which hails from one of Mandragora's spinward neighbors, and the Daemonhunter, which fits this sector like a glove, with the idea that this is a fleet more or less left to make do with older war reserves while newer equipment is used in places like Cadia and Scarus sector.  

A single GK SC may be taken as a reserve for the same reasons.  Mandragora is a bad, bad place.

You may also notice that one class of ship is missing.  This is intentional.  Battleships are too valuable to leave in the hands of people that you don't entirely trust.  


Battlefleet Mandragora

The Mandragora sector lacks for the most powerful ships of the line, and has no battleships of its own, instead being forced to rely heavily on an aging fleet of Grand Cruisers, some so ancient that they’re rarely seen outside reserve yards and mothball fleets, others representing one off experimental ships.  Other then the recent receipt of a number of Tempest class frigates from near-by Calixis sector, Mandragora’s battlefleet is obsolete by current Imperial thinking.  

Grand Cruisers:

A Battlefleet Mandragora list may contain any number of grand cruisers drawn from the following list:

Exorcist
Scylla (0-1 per 2000pts)
Charybdis (0-1 per 1500pts)
Avenger
Vengeance
Repulsive

A Battlefleet Mandragora list may take 1 heavy cruiser or two cruisers or light cruisers from the following list for each Grand Cruiser taken OR up to 3 escort squadrons.
Murder Class Cruiser
Hades Class Heavy Cruiser
Siluria class light cruiser
Cardinal Class Heavy Cruiser
Daemonslayer (0-1)
Circe class light cruiser



Escorts:
Havoc
Iconoclast
Tempest (0-2 Squadrons)
Apostate (0-2 squadrons)


Characters:
0-1 Admiral
Fleet Admiral 50
Admiral 100
Solar Admiral 150

0-5 Veteran Captains 30

If a Scylla or Charybdis is present, it must be the admirals flagship, if both are present you may pick one.  If veteran captains are taken, and either a Scylla or Charybdis is without an Admiral, one veteran captain must be placed on that this before any other ships may be assigned a veteran captain.  

Charybdis   350
Grand cruiser/10, speed 25, armor 6, shields 5, turrets 3

Port/starboard st 16 wb 30cm
Dorsal str 2 lance 45cm
prow st 4 launch bay
st 6 prow torps

Special rules
From the Dark Age: May make teleport attacks at 30cm

Scylla 360
Grand cruiser/10, speed 25,  armor 5, shields 4, turrets 4
Port 3lbs
Starboard 3lbs
Prow 3lbs
Dorsal: Lance str 3 45cm

Special rules
Scylla may launch and have in play up to twice its remaining launch bays.

Circe 100
Light Cruiser/6, Speed 25, armor 5, shields 2, turrets 3
Dorsal: Str 2 lance 30cm
Choose 1:

P/S str 1 30cm lances for +40 points
OR
P/S s6 45cm wbs +20 points
OR
P/S
Str 1 LBs. + 30 pts


Tempest 40
Escort /1 Speed 25 armor 5 shields 1 turrets 2
Dorsal  str 2 WB 15cm
1 LB
(Entire squadron may take assault boats for +5 points)



Upgrades

Note:  All these are in addition to any option that these ships may take normally, such as the Repulsive's lance range boost or the Exorcist's aboats.

Any Grand cruiser except Scylla or Charybdis may take the following upgrade: +5 speed for 10 points

Exorcist:
Exorcist may take +1 LB per side for +30 points

Repulsive:
Repulsive may take +6 armor on its front arc only for +15 points

Avenger:
 may take Improved Thrusters for +5 points OR Increase its armor to +6 for +25 points.  It may not take these upgrades if it has taken the +5 speed bonus above.



Reserve Rules
Battlefleet Mandragora may freely use ships from the Reserve Fleets list as reserve ships, without penalty.  Grand Cruisers taken as reserves in this manner may take the +5cm upgrade available to BFM grand cruisers, but no others, and MAY NOT make use of Chaos ordinance but instead must use it's IN equivalent.  Heavy Cruisers, cruisers, light cruisers or escorts taken this way count toward the number of ships you are allowed per grand cruiser.

Mandragora lists MAY not take reserves from the Gothic, Armageddon, or Bakka lists, with the exception of Grand Cruisers.

Battlefleet Mandragora may, in addition, take 0-1 Grey Knight Strike Cruisers as a reserve choice.  SM vessles may not squadron with non-SM vessels.  This strike cruiser does not count against the number of cruisers and escorts you may take per grand cruiser.

Note: Reserve ships taken for other fleets from the Mandragora list may not take these upgrades with them, representing, as they do, unusual or rare variants.  Any ship taken by IN as a reserve ship from this list automatically gains the Unreliable trait (see Armada, page 29) due to the Mandragora Sectors not entirely undeserved reputation as a fell and ill omened place filled with daemons and worse





Thoughts?

[Plaxor]

I see that I've started a trend....

Improved thrusters should be only 5 pts on the GCs. All it gives is +1d6cm on AAF. Not worth 15.

little too much complexity with how characters are allocated. Note that Veteran captains normally come with a single re-roll, which is why they normally cost 50pts.

I like the idea of the reverse selection technique, from GCs to cruisers/cls. Although I think it would be more interesting if you simply restricted based on older ships instead.

Technically the fluff does mention the GCs being in squadrons, like the Light of Ascension, which lead a squadron of exorcists. Would be interesting to see.

Thought my Tempests were too expensive? or just didn't like the idea of 30cm wbs?

I know you like the Daemon Slayer... but comon... it has a dumb name and most people are out on the psychic cannon. I do like the Cardinal.

0-2 squadrons isn't much of a limitation in most games. Unless you're playing at least 2000 points, I doubt anyone would feel the pinch.

[BaronIveagh]

I see that I've started a trend....

Improved thrusters should be only 5 pts on the GCs. All it gives is +1d6cm on AAF. Not worth 15.

little too much complexity with how characters are allocated. Note that Veteran captains normally come with a single re-roll, which is why they normally cost 50pts.

I like the idea of the reverse selection technique, from GCs to cruisers/cls. Although I think it would be more interesting if you simply restricted based on older ships instead.

Technically the fluff does mention the GCs being in squadrons, like the Light of Ascension, which lead a squadron of exorcists. Would be interesting to see.

Thought my Tempests were too expensive? or just didn't like the idea of 30cm wbs?

I know you like the Daemon Slayer... but comon... it has a dumb name and most people are out on the psychic cannon. I do like the Cardinal.

0-2 squadrons isn't much of a limitation in most games. Unless you're playing at least 2000 points, I doubt anyone would feel the pinch.

The reason I went with 15cm was that the fluff mentioned them being short ranged compared to swords.  I figured that a reduction in price would be justified.  

I know the daemon slayer's name is awful, but I wanted people to know what it was without having to reprint the rules.  I'll come up with soemthing better. the psychic cannon does need work.  it's too short ranged.  However, it's something that would be positively fluffy in this sector.

As far as Vet captains go, their reroll can only be applied to that ship (or another ship in their squadron) so it's not as effective as the FA's rerolls are, usually.  


Hmm.. 0-1 squadrons then?  I'm mostly concerned with the idea of flooding the list with Apostates as they're fairly powerful or Tempests to get more lbs.

oops.  missed that typo on the price.  thanks.


I wanted to sort of drive in that these ships were the flagships of the fleet in the absence of battleships.  Hence the character rules.  I'll try and simplify them.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, I do remember reading that about the tempest... but the thought is that in BFG ranges are pretty much rounded off at 15, 30, 45, and 60


Although the Sword may have a relative range of 35, and the tempest 25 they are both rounded to 30. Its something worth leaving in the fluff....

As an ork player, I can tell you that 15cm batteries are useless on a carrier. They are sometimes worthwhile on a linebreaker. Which is why in 'FS' it is actually worth it to take HGs on a KK. Whereas if the torps were free then it would be always with torps.

It isn't bad to be slightly ignorant of the fluff for the sake of gameplay. And I am likely the only person in the world who has a 'Tempest' model.

Not only that but at 40pts it is on the cheap side for launch bays. Although balanced, it's just easy to cram in LBs. The 30cm batteries is a great way to boost its points without making it underpowered.

[RCgothic]

On the Circe, you give:

1L P/S @30cm for 40pts
6WB P/SB @45cm for 20pts.

Are the points for these the wrong way round? The WBs are almost twice as good as the lances, even taking into account the Synergy of the lances with the dorsal mount.

On the Grand Cruisers:
Charybdis' 10 hits AV6+ Shields 5 is substantially tougher than any battleship in the game, battlebarge included. Its firepower easily matches a fixed Retribution (if not in range), and it's faster too. Given that it's better than the battleships the fleet isn't trusted with - why are they trusted with it?

Also, how does Scylla's special rule interact with squadroning/combined waves? How do you tell which of Scylla's AC are still in flight compared to AC from other ships?

[BaronIveagh]

On the Circe, you give:

1L P/S @30cm for 40pts
6WB P/SB @45cm for 20pts.

Are the points for these the wrong way round? The WBs are almost twice as good as the lances, even taking into account the Synergy of the lances with the dorsal mount.

On the Grand Cruisers:
Charybdis' 10 hits AV6+ Shields 5 is substantially tougher than any battleship in the game, battlebarge included. Its firepower easily matches a fixed Retribution (if not in range), and it's faster too. Given that it's better than the battleships the fleet isn't trusted with - why are they trusted with it?

Also, how does Scylla's special rule interact with squadroning/combined waves? How do you tell which of Scylla's AC are still in flight compared to AC from other ships?

Actually Circe's point values are odd because I haven't rebalanced the points yet, originally the lances were 45cm.

The Charybdis is really tough. (And, sadly, it's actually toned down a bit from the Nicor in IA 10)  The reason that the would not care if it was in the hands of Mandragora is the same reason that battle barges and strike cruisers are seen as inferior by IN.  Individually it's tougher, but there aren't enough of them that IN couldn't simply squash them.  In a 1500 point game you can easily have 2 battle barges but only one of these. 

As far as Scylla's AC and combining waves, haven't worked that out yet.  As far a which are which, I'd use the same method you do to keep track of squadrons from a Ramilies (in my case paint the AC a different color) . 

[Valhallan]

posted this for plax too... 25cm (or 30!) movement CG's are just a lil overboard. even chaos - the fast fleet, sticks with 20cm...
does anything else in the game have 5 shields? seriously. if its basically a BB. make it 4. really it should be 3.
no probs with the circe's weapons. but its way to heavily defended. CL's 1 shield. 2 turret max.
for the top down fleet construction. have it nid esque. ie. for each CG you *must* take 1-2 CR's OR 2-3 ES squadrons. otherwise i'll run you over with a fleet of only 1 charbdis, 1 scylla, and a butt ton of repulsives. all with great LD of course.

[Plaxor]

Valhallan... Blackstone fortresses. Technically Ramillies. Blackships


25cm gcs are a little overboard, but meh.

5 shields = win.

[BaronIveagh]

posted this for plax too... 25cm (or 30!) movement CG's are just a lil overboard. even chaos - the fast fleet, sticks with 20cm...
does anything else in the game have 5 shields? seriously. if its basically a BB. make it 4. really it should be 3.
no probs with the circe's weapons. but its way to heavily defended. CL's 1 shield. 2 turret max.
for the top down fleet construction. have it nid esque. ie. for each CG you *must* take 1-2 CR's OR 2-3 ES squadrons. otherwise i'll run you over with a fleet of only 1 charbdis, 1 scylla, and a butt ton of repulsives. all with great LD of course.

The fleet was basically based on the stats from IA 10 for the Nicor, which I ran backwards through the VBB rules to get an IN ship out of it, and then watered down the weaponry to bring it more in line with the Avenger.

The reason I pumped the Circe's defenses is that it has that LB option.  Most LB based ships have stronger defenses then WB or Lance based (which makes 0 sense, but there you have it) however I felt that making the baseline change with the weapon loadout didn't make much sense.  The Circe was conceived as a ship with modular weapons that could be swapped in and out with a few hours work at a dock that had replacement weapons stockpiled or that could be jettisoned in an emergency.  I'm still trying to balance the rules for it and critical hits to weapons though.  Basically, the idea is that if the repair roll to repair the weapon system is passed, it comes back online, if it's failed, it still come back online, but at -50% str rounded down as they've had to jettison some weapon banks.


I do like the idea that they MUST take a option though.  I'll post a revision tomorrow sometime if I'm not busy.