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Author Topic: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion  (Read 12731 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 08:27:33 PM »
During and before the heresy it was the Imperial Army including all and everything. After the heresy it was split into Space Marine Chapters, Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy. All three in balance and non able to take over the Empire on its own.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 11:16:19 PM »
Realistically though Id like to see the Imperial Guard stop a sneeze much less the Navy if they were to go traitor :P. The space marines would make a go of it but even they would be overwhelmed  ;D.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline timdp

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2013, 05:56:51 AM »
Ok so page 20 of (I think armada, it's a PDF I have called BFG Imperial fleets from 2011) It says (I'm paraphrasing) the discussion about SM fleets post Heresy, including Gulliman and Corax, reached a compromise which limited the space marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault.

I thought it said that they designed a new craft to fulfil this role so ill make you right :)

The full text of the section is below. As intercepta says, there is no mention of new designs so its still possible that the M41 style battle barges and strike cruisers existed at the time of the Heresy. Per the Codex Astartes, space marine chapters would be (mostly...) limited to a few specific designs that probably already existed. Plenty of planetary invasions happening in the Great Crusade, so designing a ship (battle barge) specifically designed for planetary invasions is not out of the realm of possibility.


"When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of
space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium
still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that
the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for
movement between homeworlds and attendant moons.

Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been
better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously
decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a
compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was
that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the
smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger
battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the
Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the
wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters
possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with."

Offline intercepta

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Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 08:23:03 PM »
Thanks dude, too much to type on tapatalk on my iPhone lol

Yeah seems reasonable to think they had a fair few M41 Battle Barges as they're the best ship for landing, they also had other Battleships I think (being careful now) as the Space Wolves still have an Emperor

Offline Cneo

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 10:02:35 PM »
Thanks dude, too much to type on tapatalk on my iPhone lol

Yeah seems reasonable to think they had a fair few M41 Battle Barges as they're the best ship for landing, they also had other Battleships I think (being careful now) as the Space Wolves still have an Emperor

There're a few chapters that ignore the Codex Astartes and follow their own way. And that includes having navy ships. Sometimes they're captured and sometimes they links with the Mechanicum are really stronger, the Black Templars for example.

Space Wolves are the chapter with more non-astartes ships known. They have an Emperor battleship, a pre-heresy Vindictive grand cruiser and a Mars battlecruiser, the last one had been salvaged after it had been destroyed in a fight alongside the SW against Chaos. Cause of the bravery of the ship´s captain the SW repaired the ship and used it themself.

And they have more 'salvaged' cruisers, all of this is a cause of great tension between the chapter and the IN.

 ;D

Offline intercepta

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Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2013, 11:56:02 AM »
So heresy era we're saying use Chaos and all of the imperial ships then right?? As for size I'm thinking sector size fleets of 50+ ships not including dedicated transports, forge ships, I can't remember the type of the mass transit transport the Ghosts used in one of the books but enough to wipe the Federation and Empire from there respective scifi series :)

Offline Cneo

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »
So heresy era we're saying use Chaos and all of the imperial ships then right??

Mainly old design Battleships (Victory, Vanquisher, Apoc., Emperor, Restribution, Desolator) and Grand/Heavy Cruisers from both sides. Battlecruisers, some Chaos Cruisers, Imperial Cruisers of the BFG and Armada books are sometimes post-heresy... but almost every ship is a valid choice, because new designs maybe based in older ones.

I wish that Forge World will dedicate a small section of their new Horus Heresy books to BFG lists or ships... ???
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:00:13 PM by Cneo »

Offline timdp

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »
Read somewhere recently that the bulk of Heresy era fleets were made up of Grand Cruisers, instead of regular cruisers. There are a lot of Imperial cruisers that are post Heresy designs (see below)

Dan Lee did a ship commission date time line chart. Its the Ship Commission Timeline (Fluff) here: http://www.danleeonline.com/old-battlefleet-gothic-articles/
Was also published in Warp Rift 30

According to the chart, Murder, Styx, Lunar, Tyrant and Mars class cruisers are all post heresy designs as are Repulsive Grand Cruisers.

All of the above info suggests that the bulk of the Imperial fleets were made up of Vengeance  class cruisers and its variants. As an example of this, the Avenger class ships Forinax, Leonis, Iron Duke, Duchess Arbellatris, and Vengeance class ship Castigator and Vindicare were present at battle for Diamat [Ref: Fallen Angels novel]

Despoiler is also a post Heresy design, so not in use during the Heresy except for the unique Terminus Est.
There are irreconcilable discrepancies in the Retribution and Apocalypse fluff (Apoc is supposed to be the precursor to the Retribution, but the Retribution is said to date from the founding of the Imperium). My thinking is that they are old ship designs and probably both in use at the time of the Heresy.

So, post-Heresy designs not suitable for a Heresy era fleet:
Murder
Styx
Lunar
Tyrant
Mars
Repulsive
Despoiler
Falchion
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:51:23 PM by timdp »

Offline aussiekirgan

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 09:47:39 AM »
I think it's very hard to scope/ scale some of this stuff in the current M41/2 universe. I think I read all the above posts so please flame if evidence exists to the contrary  :o

Heresy-era ships seem to be on a scale on another level, even to the envisioned Gloriana/ Abyss class.
Looking at references in Know No Fear (and others i think), the larger vessels are 17-20km long. Going off an Emperor/ Retribution Class shape, that indicates ships superstructure up to 4-5km across and high, with the prow/ waist sections being 2 km high. without getting too exact. I could scale up an image but I'm lazy :)
Referencing Salvations Reach (M41), some of the support Marines recall 10,000 Caestus assault rams being launched from a "SuperMassive". Even if the reference is wrong and that number is in Marines, you're at the right number of guys to send a legion force in a less-than-silly number of vessels.

Offline horizon

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Offline intercepta

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Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 10:26:27 AM »
Timdp: that links fantastic for this, after seeing your link I remembered it :p

Aussie: good call, the large ships pre heresy that we here about do seen to be massive (see phalanx, the emperors flagship etc)

Horizon: I like those links, do you have a link to those rarer Battleships?

Offline timdp

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Re: Space Marine Legion fleet size discussion
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 09:38:05 PM »
And a complete forum about it:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?

Although the only ship based thread is this one (which I have been posting in):
http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0

Another thread here has some photochops of possible "big ship" configurations:
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5727.new#new

There is also discussion in the "Vengeful Spirit and Venerable BB models - advice sought!" thread:
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=5664.0

Tim
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 09:40:08 PM by timdp »