BFG:R Finalizing Space Marines

[afterimagedan]

So we have a successful vote on the THAs and we have decided to hold off on the chapters. Any other changes we need to do to make the SM document final?

[Bessemer]

Seems good. The only thing that seems off to me is the removal of RSV's.

As I understand, this was voted on before (original BFGR?), so I can't exactly moan about it. Just seems a little unfair to those who have taken them, like my BFG Sparring buddy, who plays SM with a good number of RSV's.

You could also argue that BB's should also get some options for weapons, as, like SC's, they are a type of vessel, as opposed to a single class. That said, you could just take a VBB for whatever role your wanting it for, so I've just shot myself in the foot with that...

[Jimmy Zimms]

Also nothing prevents mutually agreed list variations for house play. Where it's standing now is a good thing IMO.

[afterimagedan]

Seems good. The only thing that seems off to me is the removal of RSV's.

As I understand, this was voted on before (original BFGR?), so I can't exactly moan about it. Just seems a little unfair to those who have taken them, like my BFG Sparring buddy, who plays SM with a good number of RSV's.

I'm not against RSVs at all, to be honest. It just hasn't ever affected me that they weren't there.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The removal of rsvs was rubbish imo but a reasonable work around may be to allow them to take standard IN escorts without restriction? No bonus for being SM but their 5pts cheaper each than rsvs anyway.

[Talos]

I am much in favor of returning RSV at normal costs. That actually gives them a reason to exist; most SM escorts are just IN escorts anyway, with more firing arcs and speed. Having the 10pts discrepancy means that they are actually much more different in terms of gameplay.

[afterimagedan]

OK so we have some who would like the RSVs back. Who else agrees with that?

[harec]

I do

[Talos]

I'm interested, depending on the approach. If only because it sucks for those who went and painted those bad boys up...

[Seahawk]

Like me! Keep the darn ships in, please!

[horizon]

Daft, last time we voted a majority wanted them out. 

[Seahawk]

I wasn't here for that nonsense.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ok so for me this comes down to why would they need to be removed? Theyre inferior to the other space marine escorts, theyre already a part of many space marine fleets, and this would be so far as im aware the only instance of any ships being removed from BFG-R that is and has always been a part of the standard rules since their list was released, we might as well remove Carnages and Mars and Shadows while were at it...

If someone has a legitimate reason for their removal we should come up with a solution to those problems and fix the RSVs anyway, not just drop them.

[Sigoroth]

The only reason RSVs were included in the first place was because SMs didn't have escorts at first. The RSVs were simply IN escorts with SM rules +5 pts whacked on. When the SMs were finally given actual escort models (first by FW then by SG) the rules given were better than their IN counterparts and so had to cost more, which is fine. But since they were also better than the RSVs and also had the SM rules they had to cost more than those too. This meant that the SM ships got a double bump in price, making them overcosted (Nova and Gladius at least).

So to fix this problem the RSVs were removed. This allowed the price of the SM escorts to come down, still being more expensive than an IN escort but without having a completely inferior ship for the same price around as comparison.

For example, a normal Sword costs 35 pts, an RSV Sword, with SM rules, costs 40 pts. A Gladius with +5cm costs 45 pts. That is a linear progression with the minimum price increase taken at each step. However, this leaves the Gladius costing 10 pts more than a Sword and it's clearly not worth it.

Removing the RSV version removes a step from the progression and therefore allows the cost of the Gladius to come down to 40 pts where it belongs. So for the same price of an old RSV you can buy a (superior) Gladius. Therefore the removal of RSVs allows the SM escorts to be priced appropriately. You now get a full SM escort for the price of an RSV. Hence the RSVs are superfluous. What's more, their removal is necessary to allow the appropriate pricing of SM escorts

If you really REALLY wanted to keep RSVs, for those that had painted them up, then you could just allow SMs the use of normal IN escorts (IN Ld and rules, not SM) at regular IN costs. I personally wouldn't like this. Having 2 versions of the same escort in the same fleet is ... blech. Also you'd have to disallow mixing the RSVs with the normal SM escorts, due to the leadership differential.

For those that have painted up RSVs you could always repaint them to an IN colour scheme or have them count as the appropriate SM escort or just sell them off. I would prefer any of these alternatives than just allowing essentially non-SM ships in an SM fleet.

[harec]

Well I don't see the problem, just leave the SM escorts pts like if there where not RSVs, but leave the RSV, I don't understand why can't you put 2 ships witch are not equal with the same point value. I know concerning the rules is maybe akward but is just a way to leave SM players to have more transfondistic variety even if their fleets are less competent by puting RSVs.
And as I already said I would be even in favour of leaving the SM to have any type of human escorts with a correct point ajustment, just to add more history to the chapter.