BFG:R Space Marines

[afterimagedan]

which are some reason not superior to load of guys who did not make the grade as marines. Also yet to see these guys in books involving boarding actions which suggest that failed marines should get +2 to boarding

They are't "failed" marines. That's like suggesting the professional MMA fighters who apply to the Green Beret (American special forces) and were rejected are just "failed green berets."

[ThaneAquilon]

They should feel the same way when boarded by Thunderwolves as they do with Khorne Berzerkers. That's my argument, they should have similar game options.

Marks of chaos do not give Khorn Berzerkers to the ship. Yes they shoudl have similar game options, the marks are not them, though.

Wouldn't traitors who have defected, even if they weren't trained by SM, be just as good as chapter serfs, simply by existing in the eye of terror for a few hundred years?

[Talos]

@ThaneAquilon Quite possibly, but most humans, even in the eye, don't live for a couple hundred. The ones that do are not the ones doing the boarding I assure you, but commanding empires and armies. Good point on the marks.

As a note against chapter specifics like better boarding, note that the conqueror comes with a khorne berserker HORDE, which counts as regular CSM ruleswise, despite the fact that I would put money on a HORDE of khorne berserkers being better off in a close range melee/shootout that a couple of serfs, even with a dozen marines. Devil's advocate, I am today.

Also seems strange that a couple hundred serfs fight better than several thousand/dozens of thousand orks! I mean the things survive getting their arms torn off and hard freakin' vacuum for minutes, added to the fact that each one is stronger than a human by a mile, and a close up melee between humans and boatloads of orks should be like a full grown man putting a kitten into a blender and pressing puree.

[afterimagedan]

They should feel the same way when boarded by Thunderwolves as they do with Khorne Berzerkers. That's my argument, they should have similar game options.

Marks of chaos do not give Khorn Berzerkers to the ship. Yes they shoudl have similar game options, the marks are not them, though.

This is true. I am trying to make the point though, that if the Terminator upgrade can have suck a powerful effect the game, then why not have other chapter specific benefits they can purchase? One could argue that it's unnecessary, but I think SMs need some more flare and chapter specific units/bonuses is a great way to do that. I am totally convinced now that whole chapter fleet effects (like the old BFG:R options) is not the way to do this. Let's keep the SM fleets how they are in the current BFG:R document and make a later appendix where each chapter has a few options that would make the fleets more interesting and cause some distinctions (albeit small) to the fleets. CSM options too. When should we start the discussion about SM chapter upgrades? Now? Later?

Also, are we ready to vote on closing the SM list once we resolve the THA issue? Also, should I put the Fortress Monestary rules AND the Ramilies rules in there?

[ThaneAquilon]

I look forward to the appendix. Specific legions should be on there, but marks are pretty essential to chaos, IMO.

@Talos fair points all round.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I dont think anyone is opposed to an appendix, there are maybe a few who would want these options in the standard rules but those would be the minority from what ive seen here.

Why include the Ramiles? Outside of a scenario built around the big stations I dont really see the point of them.

[afterimagedan]

I dont think anyone is opposed to an appendix, there are maybe a few who would want these options in the standard rules but those would be the minority from what ive seen here.

Why include the Ramiles? Outside of a scenario built around the big stations I dont really see the point of them.

Well, I suppose I should just include the Fortress-Monastery because it's in the 2010 Crusade fleet.