Flawed Defenses

[Plaxor]

So I know I was leaving this up to Horizon, but I changed my mind, and feel that we can help make community decisions,

Anyways the general idea is that Mines/Orbital Weapons platforms are the best thing to take for defenses.

So here we will discuss (and my first takes on every one)

Orbital Defense Platforms: These are somewhat internally unbalanced, I reccomend that the weapons platform go down to 45cm weapons batteries, and possibly the torpedo launcher go to 4 torps (maybe 5)

Mines/Minefields: Perhaps increasing the cost of mines to 10 points, or making them 'die' to turret fire (if the turrets get two successful hits) Although this may mean revising the mine launcher variants of ships? Minefields probably an increase to 60-80 points.

Fireship: Seems fine

System ships: Decrease in cost to 15? Or increase of speed to 20?

Monitor: Decrease to 55? Maybe just leave alone.

Orbital Dock: Seems fine, although I could see its armor go to 6+ as 6+ armor on defenses =~5+ armor on capital ships (it's a little better but not significantly)

Space Station: I want to see this represent the model, so I'd ditch the launch bays, up its armor to 6+ (as this seems necessary for defenses) and probably make it cost 100-130 points.

BSF: This should have a line... can be used to represent any large space station. Also probably should have 6+ armor as well, but that would make it cost around 500 points I imagine.

Activated BSF: this thing is somewhat crappy compared to the standard BSF, I'd make it cost similar to the BSF or give it turrets. (say they are some high energy power arcs that destroy nearby small craft). It always gets destroyed by bombers as it has no turrets.

Laser, Missile & Air Base ground defenses: Seem fine

Ramilies: Needs to be balanced with the Fortress Monastery, either it needs 6+ armor (which I think makes sense for all defenses), and a cost increase of ~90 points, or it needs to be cheaper.


Xenos Varieties:

Tau Orbitals: Probably Ok, but could use 6+ armor. Maybe an increase in the value of habitat modules (2hits for +10 points instead of +1 for 5 points)

Other Tau things (security orbitals/city) Do these need anything?

Eldar: Does anyone think that the base needs changes?

Orks: In my 'Ork flawed ships' I made different Rok variants, and these seem ok. The better leadership seems to counter with them being immobile. Also I added in 'MAD' Roks which cost 40 points, have no weapons, can only be taken as defenses and have the fireship rules.


Current lists for what is available to various races for defenses:

IN/Chaos:
Fireship
System Ship
Ramilies
Orbital weapons
Mines & Minefields
Space Station
Orbital Dock
BSF
SDM
ABSF (chaos only)
Ground Based Weapons

Orks:
Roks
Orbital Weapons
Mines & Minefields
Space Stations
Orbital Docks
BSF
SDM
Ground based weapons
Fireship
System Ship
Hulk (as a defense for pirate bases)

Tau:
Orbitals
Security orbital
Orbital City
Ground defenses?

Eldar & DE
Haven

Necrons, Nids:
None



I think that Orks should use 'Ork Ordinance' when they buy vessels with launch bays. I'm pretty sure they would be the only ones who would put assault boats on a space station....

Also Eldar & DE could see some more options for defenses. Necrons and Nids could see some in general, I know its kind of unfluffy for them to build them. However Nids could easily use most of the IN/Chaos ships and just 'say' that they are their biological equialents. Similarly they should use Nid ordinance. Necrons could just receive more vessels (I.E. they could spend their defense points on escorts, but probably not a capital ship)

There should be a standard for what people use as a pirate base in campaigns. I would reccomend a BSF. However Eldar would get 2 havens? Maybe if there was a larger option or some similar thing.

[lastspartacus]

I've thought holofields on defenses was always very silly. 

Necrons absolutely need defenses, they are very defensive of their tomb worlds, especially if active.

Normal nids wouldnt need defenses.  However, I am working on a campaign format, and part of the goal is to allow all races to be major players if they wish, not just raiders.  This includes necrons and tyranids.  For tyranids, the fluff excuse is an evolutionary experemental hive fleet that doesnt strip mine worlds, but instead 'farms' them with enslaved sentient populations, controlled by symbiotic lifeforms or whatever.  In a way, much more terrifying

That way you could have nids 'controlling' worlds./

[Lex]

IFor tyranids, the fluff excuse is an evolutionary experemental hive fleet that doesnt strip mine worlds, but instead 'farms' them with enslaved sentient populations, controlled by symbiotic lifeforms or whatever.  In a way, much more terrifying

When enslaving a world with spacefarting tech, they would then have access to the "local" form of defences, and the Nids would hardly need to create their own.....

Assuming they will have a certain mimic-factor when absorbing enough basic DNA material, you could presume Nids leaving their entrypaths into a system strewn with pods that could act like mines, or even more nasty, have limited independent movement (activated on proximity) and act like ordnance, even performing "boarding"  actions against ships near enough or in contact.....

Ground to space defences......  scenes from Starship trooper come to mind....
For Necrons, loads of energy discharging artifacts, partlyplanetside and "hidden"  on moons and astroids...  also, most smaller necron ships are fairly spaveworthy, are they not ?

[lastspartacus]

All necron ships are spaceworthy, do you mean capable of entering the atmosphere?  The answer is yes, they can.

I dunno about orbitals, but low-orbit ground defenses would be covered by the Pylon, something specifically mentioned to be used as anti-starship, IIRC.

[Plaxor]

Nids are defenders quite often in missions. Think of exterminatus missions. They would be defending there and need planetary defense equivalents.

[Lex]

Nids are defenders quite often in missions. Think of exterminatus missions. They would be defending there and need planetary defense equivalents.

Exterminatus essentialy means blowing up the invaded planet, which implicitly means the bulk of the Nids fleet would still be in orbit, ar at the least, in system... epso facto the Nids should have access tofull fleetlists in defence.....

[Gron]

Just some random thoughts here:

This isn't addressed in FAQ v2.6 but taking a minefield or two in a campaign means that the opponent cannot score VP's by destroying it (it's indestructible), so my gaming group used a house rule that any minefields count as 100% destroyed if the defender loose the scenario.

I'd love to see more variants of space stations or give them a points reduction alternatively 6+ armour for any defences. It feels somewhat reluctant to set aside any additional points on defences apart from those rolled for as they are easy VP's to the opponent (especially in campaigns). Therefore space stations are almost never ever deployed as there is minefields that are much more durable as defences.

Tyranids are able to spend their additional defence points on the ordnance section, this is more suitable than evolving stationary things. True a Tyranid cult may have access to domestic technology such as orbital platforms (assuming they control the world).

Necrons, yes they need their own defences, perhaps make them dependent on power relays/crystals for deployment areas. They could have lightning arc platforms and minefields(dormant scarabs that cause hit n runs instead?)

I haven't play with or against the rest of the races to have any particular opinion of their defences.

[Plaxor]

Exterminatus essentialy means blowing up the invaded planet, which implicitly means the bulk of the Nids fleet would still be in orbit, ar at the least, in system... epso facto the Nids should have access tofull fleetlists in defence.....

Lex, in exterminatus missions the defender is allotted a certain number of bonus points that he/she can only spend on 'planetary defenses' Nids don't have these. So the thought is either they would just get those points to either spend on more vessels, or we would have to 'design' some defenses for them.

This isn't addressed in FAQ v2.6 but taking a minefield or two in a campaign means that the opponent cannot score VP's by destroying it (it's indestructible), so my gaming group used a house rule that any minefields count as 100% destroyed if the defender loose the scenario.

Decent Idea. I think the game designers thought 'oh it's 40 points... no big deal'. Although this could be something easily incorporated. Say if the minefields opponent holds the field then they will spend time dismantling the minefield and it will count as destroyed for VP purposes.

I'd love to see more variants of space stations or give them a points reduction alternatively 6+ armour for any defences. It feels somewhat reluctant to set aside any additional points on defences apart from those rolled for as they are easy VP's to the opponent (especially in campaigns). Therefore space stations are almost never ever deployed as there is minefields that are much more durable as defences.

6+ armor is the most sensible idea, since the space station doesn't have to move its bulk of armor. Plus they are often rather large. I could see rolling orbital dock and space station into one statline and have it 'upgradeable' with different options.

Tyranids are able to spend their additional defence points on the ordnance section, this is more suitable than evolving stationary things. True a Tyranid cult may have access to domestic technology such as orbital platforms (assuming they control the world).

I know... it's just... a dumb mechanic, and doesn't work well with the ordinance rules. It takes 100 days for tyranids to consume a planet, presumably the hive ship would birth various stationary creatures to defend the planet. I could see making stats for orbital platforms 'tyranid style' as well as maybe a small space station. Of course mines are a must for them.

Necrons, yes they need their own defences, perhaps make them dependent on power relays/crystals for deployment areas. They could have lightning arc platforms and minefields(dormant scarabs that cause hit n runs instead?)

That would be interesting. Necron defenses would likely be very unique to their race. I was thinking surface weaponry on the planet that could actually fire some distance into space, but that wouldn't work well.

I like the idea of these minefield 'scarab swarms' but necrons aren't supposed to have ordinance, so we'll see how that boils over with other people.

[BaronIveagh]

In fluff necrons use ground based weaponry such as Pylons against starships IIRC.  As far as is known, they don't actually possess space stations or the like, but do have a dyson sphere... which would probably be outside the scope of BFG....

[lastspartacus]

Necrons firing from the surface into space is a cool idea.  I don't think they should be dependant on a power grid mechanic, they are very advanced.

Its not that necrons dont have ordnance, its just that they dont in the current rules.  In the old rules they had scarab swarm ordnance, like in my Dynamic Intriguiing Necrons fleet list experement over in experemental rules.