Assaunlt Boats hit escorts on a 4+ ??

[Don Gusto]

This just occured to me,

How would DE leech torpedoes be handled with this rules change? (they inflict an automatic critical without to hit roll)
How about Fire Ships, Melta and Vortex Torpedoes?

Right now all of the above will kill an escort and BFI doesn't help.

[horizon]

Torps need to pass armour first.

Fire ships = such a rare occurence = leave as is (BFI still works).

Leeches = Seriously... I forgot they inflicted a critical, I believed they drained range...They don't need to pierce armour first?

[Don Gusto]

You are right about the torpedoes.
The rules for leech torpedoes don't explicitly state that no to hit roll is needed, so they probably need a hit as well.
Fire ships, rare granted, but you can't BFI versus their effect. The FAQ2007 only allowed BFI to criticals from H&R attacks.

... which brings me back to what I was pondering about ...

I would still like to see this rule addition dropped if H&R attacks are handled differently versus escorts.

The original rule is: BFI doesn't protect against critical damage. Plain and simple but tough on the escorts. To help them out BFI was allowed versus H&R and I agree it was needed. But now another rule is proposed to remedy the same problem.
Why have two special rules when you can do it with just one?

If a 4+ for H&R is still too hard on escorts (I doubt it) 5+ surely will do it.

For comparison:
A single bomber attacking an escort (5+ armor, 1 turret) has a 2/3 chance of killing it if he's not shot down and the escort is not on BFI (someone did the math on another board).
A single assault boat now has a 1/2 chance after surviving turret fire. BFI would reduce this to 1/4.

[russ_c]

For comparison:
A single bomber attacking an escort (5+ armor, 1 turret) has a 2/3 chance of killing it if he's not shot down and the escort is not on BFI (someone did the math on another board).
A single assault boat now has a 1/2 chance after surviving turret fire. BFI would reduce this to 1/4.

Ooo, I like a good mental work out!  I believe your odds are actually off, which only matters to me because it paints a different picture...

A single bomber actually only has about a 14% chance of destroy a single +5 armor, 1 turret escort: It must first survive the turret (1/2), it must then roll a 2+ for attacks due to the -1 turret modifier (5/6), and then it must roll a 5+ to hit the armor (1/3).  This gives 30 possible successful combinations from 216 different combinations (30/216) or ~14%

 vs

A single assault boat does indeed have a (1/4) or 25% chance.

Add BFI into the equation and you have impossibly small odds for a bomber to destroy an escort and only a 1/8 chance with a single assault boat.  So it's still easier to destroy an escort with a single assault boat, it's just not favorable odds.

Personally, I think adding BFI is just fine.  A single assault boat should have small odds of destroying an escort and 1/8 feels alright.  Having a 25% chance is still pretty silly in my opinion.  Besides, most people send 2 to 4 assault boats which GREATLY increases the odds.

Russ

[tanith]

Sorry guys,but I really don't understand: why do you want to weaken the assault boats?Yes now they can easily destroy escorts....but this is their best use!!(and almost their only use!!)
in comparison to bombers and mixed waves they are very weak VS cruisers and Battleships (many bombers often destroy a single target ship,many assault boats often only "disarm" a ship) .... if you make them comparable or even weaker against escorts why players should launch them instead of bombers/bombers+fighters?  
sorry for my bad english

[lastspartacus]

I sure as heck use assault boats for more than just escorts.

Do you know what str8 boarding torps combined with str8 dreadclaw wave from my Despoiler does?
Takes an enemy battleship out of commission without having to destroy it, thats what.

[horizon]

Hi Tanith,
wrong. A great way of using assault boats is to attack high turreted ships and high armour ships. Vs a 6+ ship bombers lose weight, against a high turret ship, eg 5 turret Emperor, are nigh on useless (d6-5), but assault boats just need to be not hit. Doing crits on a battleship like that en masse can be rally usefull.
Many bombers don't do crap vs battleships, many assault boats do.

So assault boats are very useful. And still bs escorts. 4+ is still a good 4+ but not the dumb auto.

[lastspartacus]

I thought assault boats had to bypass armor like boarding torps.  Yay if they dont.

[tanith]

ok you are right in this...my esperience is mostly against tyranids using imperials or chaos...until now my dreadclaws were my bestweapon against his many escorts...(and they force him to launch fighters and only few assault boats)

[horizon]

@LS, <facepalm> haha. Well, that was the aboat problem vs escorts, pass escorts, roll a dice and on a 2+ the escort was gone. Marines did this at a 1+.
So no armour bypass for assault boats.

@Tanith. True, they will still be a good weapon vs escorts. Imperial Navy as such needed to use different tactics allready as they only have assault boats on the Emperor or Oberon.

[lastspartacus]

Ah ok, still have to roll against armor then to get the crit, if i understand correctly.

[horizon]

No.

Okay, old style:
Assault boat hits base.
roll turret = 4+ to hit.
If turret missed assault boat attacks:
D6
check the critical hit table:
1 = miss
2,3,4,5,6 = apply hit table result (eg prow or port damaged or ... ).

vs escort this meant that at 2,3,4,5 or 6 the escort was destroyed (Brace for Impact allowed though).

So nothing vs armour rolling.

In the new style vs cruiser nothing changes but for escorts it is changed to a new sort: 4+ to destroy escort. 1-3 is miss.

So no armour rolling.

[lastspartacus]

So, to be clear, if you board in a torp and not an assault boat, you still need to bypass armor?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Yes. BT need to roll vs armor.