Specialist Arms Forum
Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => Topic started by: cjbennett22 on February 23, 2015, 01:01:31 AM
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Since getting back into this game in the fall I had 2000+ points of chaos and about 1100 points of dwarfs from 2001 when I was actually playing this game. I have begun collecting dwarves to get them to 2000+ points so I could play some actual games. But because of their prices I didn't want to collect an army that sucked and knew their had to be a way to win consistently with the dwarves. I tried several formations and could not figure out how to withstand a cavalry assault. But finally, I heard of a rule that with a single order you could attack from a column brigade described below by moving your front line out of the way and attacking with your columns.
I began doing the math of attacks and armor and figuring out that the math is finally in the dwarves favor with this brigade formation. 1 line of thunderers 3 stands across and 3 columns of warriors behind that in support. I had the chaos knights attack again and again and with the proper support from the rangers on the flank and the gyrocopters behind the enemy an attack can be halted and a counter attack can wipe out the opposing cavalry. I played 2 full games (by myself so who knows if I was influencing one side or the other) but with a lot of terrain the dwarves won hands down!!! with no terrain, the chaos knights still withered away without able to knock to much of the dwarves out of the game.
So with that brigade in mind I have started to collect my new dwarf units and have finally received the last warrior in the mail this weekend.
Final list:
General, runesmith, hero
2 thunderers, 6 warriors
2 cannon, 2 flame cannon
2 gyrocopters
3 rangers
combining the rule for that one order of movement and charging and the tactics learned from the warmaster magazine tips and tricks with the "Dwarf Commando" article.
Anyone still playing as dwarves know any other way to actually win consistently? My next concern is if the 9 breakpoint will be enough to withstand any elf and undead army breakpoints.
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I've never played with or against Dwarfs, but I know there's a good article- I think the title is 'The Evolution of a Dwarf Commando'- in one of the Warmaster Magazines.
I'll try and find you some more details later.
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Bring the fight to the enemy. Interdict one area of the board with the cannons and then steamroller a flank.
Charging from column, with the thunderers moved to a side to deplace supporting troops allows you to play offensive too
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with the 2 games I played the chaos army couldn't sit anywhere because of the cannons. the flame cannons in line with the cannons make them dicey to attack with anything, especially for my chaos harpies that can't even have a hero join them in combat (I did try to attack like that with the harpies and they lost).
fighting on the map with the terrain first, the chaos army barely lost only by breakpoint. The second play battle I did without any terrain what so ever and the cannon's just ripped the cavalry brigade apart making it nearly impossible to smoothly move across the field and then ended up just attacking as soon as it could not very co-ordinated at all, harpies couldn't move around to the rear and no magic could help out during the fight either.
then the counter strike from the dwarves just wiped the rest of it off the board and lastly clean up the rest with the cannon as the chaos infantry never even got close to attacking (cavalry moved to fast across).
That was the "balanced" chaos army that I have had since 2001 I believe, so I swapped out some heavy hitters to beef up the numbers with paper cavalry for the third game (and increased the breakpoint by 2). They won that with "some" terrain but only by a single unit on the break point. That game could have gone either way.
Regardless I am happy with the dwarves and I am now finishing up with painting and re-basing them. I was hoping to get some inspiring stories from others who win with them because I hear bad things ha!
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Never tried them but finished my eighth warrior unit yesterday. *phew* Soon there. :)
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Haranin plays with something like this: http://wm-selector.appspot.com/army_selector.html?list=dwarf&label=&print=&0=13&4=2&7=1&7-SwF=1&9=2&9-0=1
While not overly fun to play against (one trick pony) it's a very tough dwarf army. General tactics usually involve occupying defended terrain and letting the enemy bounce off of supported Warrior formations before charging in themselves. The Runesmiths are just there to be annoying, the General issues the commands. Cannons are used to break up formations/cause command penalties. Cav is dealt with by "sandwiching" it between two Warriors.
I'll also note that we play terrain heavy here:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G3WPbnti22E/UswZ5JihlzI/AAAAAAAAOZA/FU-6bbdu7tk/s800/IMG_0015.JPG)
This favors high armor/hit infantry armies while putting cav at a disadvantage. Your mileage may vary if you're playing on something closer to this:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MAeQ9MS3ODY/T7uqjBzEEVI/AAAAAAAALYs/spOzq_5oGz0/s800/IMG_015.JPG)
My elves always get nervous when they head out to Adepticon in Chicago. It's the lack of trees I think.
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Man o'War was the game that I saw first that I liked for a real random terrain. Section off the table into smaller squares and then roll a dice for 1-3 pieces of terrain in each square. Unless you want to play a scenario or specific map of course. I have since seen that method a lot
I like playing with terrain but not while practicing strategies. I don't like the idea that dwarves depend on getting defended position to win :)
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I have made it my mission to make sure the battlefields here look more like the former than the latter, ha ha.
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Man o'War was the game that I saw first that I liked for a real random terrain. Section off the table into smaller squares and then roll a dice for 1-3 pieces of terrain in each square. Unless you want to play a scenario or specific map of course. I have since seen that method a lot
I like playing with terrain but not while practicing strategies. I don't like the idea that dwarves depend on getting defended position to win :)
Use the "ok, there is not scenery on it, but that does not mean it is open terrain" (house)rule
That way only roads and the footprint on either side (in effect the "road" being 3 times as wide as represented and specific indicated "flat area features" are considered "in the open"
and/or
support before combat
and/or
any terrainmods count in the most favourable way if at least one stand is in position. But for BOTH units involved in combat (which also cleans up discussions on only able to apply hits to akward stands.
(in simple terms - defender gets most fav defense bonus based on best placed stand BUT attacker also gets most fav attack bonus based on least good placement of defender)
All 3 together kill the CAV rules situation
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any terrainmods count in the most favourable way if at least one stand is in position. But for BOTH units involved in combat (which also cleans up discussions on only able to apply hits to akward stands.
(in simple terms - defender gets most fav defense bonus based on best placed stand BUT attacker also gets most fav attack bonus based on least good placement of defender)
Nice
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Hi,
some accumulated thoughts based on my own highly subjective experience climbing the dwarf learning curve.
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I too was told Dwarfs worked best finding a defended position and weathering the storm.
I found this advice to be complete rubbish. 13 defeats in a row taught me that.
Dwarf players are often stubborn too. :)
If you give up the initiative you get flanked and die, every time. (I hesitated before writing 'every'...but on careful reflection I'll stick with it.)
Thanks to their 10 command general, the Dwarfs are 'foot-cavalry'. Get in there.
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I like mixed brigades: 1Ranger/1 TrollSlayer/2Warriors. Usually all in columns of 3.
With the penultimate order before contact, bring your columns up to 19cm from target.
Final pep talk before the order to go in.
Pass = you hit with 3 columns. 19 cm from target means...oh dear....stands after the first don't have enough movement to get into front contact and so have to form up behind, making a 3 deep column.
Incoming hits are now spread across your 3 units. You are unlikely to lose stands, even if it starts to go bad.
If you put rangers on one end of the 3 fighting units and win the first round you can follow up mounted troops and wrap round the end of a cavline. One stand straight forward, one at the side and one across the rear.
The 4th unit is your insurance. It either moves round the flank. (You never know, you might make _another_ order!) Or... it covers the brigade. (Even if that just means its the counter attack later, if you lose.)
Fail = you are far enough away that even SilverHelms need two orders to hit you in the flank, next turn. Having a flank resting on terrain is nice. (You never know, the enemy might not move at all and then you can charge in using initiative next turn.)
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I tend to put two batteries with a flame Cannon in the middle. One unit of warriors either side. Put the warriors in an 'L' formation, Two stands in front, one behind, to maximise support. Now they are in irregular formation and only move 10cm....The same as the artillery.
I see Dwarf Cannons as effectively making big chunks of the table impassible for cavalry.
Using your adjacent units to 'steer' LoS so you can shoot at targets other than closest is 'legal' but it wont win you any friends.
Invest in a solid straight edge ruler. Fold out carpenter's are ideal. Players with knights can't help but suffer from wobbly-tape-measure-syndrome when it comes to the path of artillery shots and its penetration. A nice straight edge takes away any ambiguity.
Artillery operate in two phases. The first phase often involves your opponent throwing a bag of feathers up in the air in front of your batteries. (They may have been Eagles or some other flying creatures. There's not usually enough left for a positive identification.) This phase also involves the shaping-of the-battlespace by refusing big chunks of the table at range using your cannon . Pity help a unit of silver helms trying to cross the front of two batteries. Its not unusual to hit one unit with 16 canon dice.
Second phase is when your mixed brigades have advanced to the point that its obvious where the fight is going to be. Its now that the command 10 general can rush a flying column forward made up from the two warrior units babysitting the artillery and the flame cannon. By now there is usually either a fire for them to put out or an advantage to press. If there's a fire, their mission is to move up into counter-attack position. (This is where things have gone badly and one of your mixed brigades is likely to disintegrate. You can often get the flying column up into initiative charge distance of the erstwhile victors as they overextend.) By now you should definitely be coming within 30cm of targets-of-opportunity for the Flame Cannon.
I never really took to my thunderers. I prefer the visceral thrill of Troll Slayers.
Hopefully my coffee break ramblings are of interest to any Dwarf newbies.
My 2c.
Happy Hunting
--Hammerskelp
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that is definitely a coffee break rambling and a half! very appreciated though, just what I wanted to be reading during my lunch break, thank you.
I have been trying to figure out how the dang dwarf army can be on the offensive, the cannons take away any defensive position the other army may take up so that forces them to be offensive and me to be defensive but it doesn't guarantee that their attack is going to be messy or un co-ordinated. I have purposely put on a perfect attack with 2 chaos knights hitting the front, a chariot hitting a flank and the harpies camping out behind. The dwarf block got annihilated but while still causing casualties and they still lasted 4 rounds i think, so if I could prevent that from ever happening then I think I could win the war of attrition as the flank screening rangers will be able to flank the attacking survivors.
As for offense, the attack by the 3 columns would only be worth it if the rangers could flank and maybe finish them off. otherwise my warriors will need to risk getting bounced back and then counter attacked but this time the warriors will not be in a nice neat block to support each other and probably get mowed down within a few rounds of combat. in a perfectly co-ordinated attack by the dwarves, there will be a broken up brigade in front of them because of thunderer and gyrocopter fire, and with the 3 ranger stands hitting the flank of 1 cavalry stand and a gyrocopter camping out behind it should go smoothly and then should be able to "fall back" into a nice neat group again, almost. Only 1 warrior unit should be needed to go forward to add some attack hits, staying in the column and the 1 front stand of warriors would be enough to engage a whole cavalry unit and only 1 cavalry unit so the rest can be peppered with hot lead. With any luck the first one will be killed by falling back through the gyrocopter and I can repeat against the next unit of cavalry in the line.
I don't know, I honestly haven't tried the offensive thing yet. HA!
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Two batteries of cannon, a flame cannon and two warriors. Isn't that two brigades?
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Two batteries of cannon, a flame cannon and two warriors. Isn't that two brigades?
Aquahog..
The flame cannon and two warriors move off as a brigade of 3 once the first 'budgie' phase is over.
Having the GunLine+Escorts as a brigade of 4 would be convenient for maneuver, you're right. However, dropping one of the warriors weakens the formation too much.
If you do have to move the whole line of 5, its usually early on. The enemy is quite far away and its usually a wheel. The Warriors at the 'safe' end can catchup. Relatively low risk for a lot more security
I've often found that having 2 warriors and the flame-cannon arriving late-to-the-party provides more flexibility when it comes to where they can be most effective.
Maybe its just me but if the Flame-Cannon is further forward I tend to get it committed too easily.
Again...my personal 2c.
regards
--Hammerskelp
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Finally got in a couple of 2,000 point games just by myself just to watch the scenarios happen in real life. the "Dwarven Hammer" that I am calling it, the row of thunderers in front of 3 dwarven warrior columns, seems to work really really well.
You need to really co-ordinate a massive attack to take out the brigade or any counter strikes will wipe you out. I used my chaos knights to just punch through and skip to the rear to flank attack the next turn but then just turn the cannon brigade around and blast them to bits!!
Attacked the cannon brigade with the knights, took so many hits and casualties before getting to the line they just bounced off only to still get blasted to bits the next turn.
You need to place a flyer at the rear, and hit the front and flank at the same time to have a chance.
Not to mention the offensive capabilities of this formation. With one order, move the thunderers out of the way and run forward with the 3 warrior columns, usually one can hit the flank. The thunderers missile attacks with the armor piercing should always score at least 1 hit and drive any supporting troops back. Had this work out once to perfection and had to smile. I have finally figured out the dwarves.....not that this would work against all armies but with a little tweaks here and there like swaping out thunderers for troll slayers for their drive back rule against maybe empire or another dwarf even.
Hammerskelp, would you say that your dwarves win 50 percent of the time, or there about all things considered?
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I did a little bit of stadistics, and Dwarves with lizardmen are the most succesful armies. They are around 75%-80% of victories (numbers by heart). They are a toough army.
Good to read your posts and tactics. It is interesting the one you use the artillery brigade to move and shoot while your infantry fix the enemy.
When you talked about "Dwarven Hammer" in the 5th parragraph you said that thunderers can move out to shoot the enemy supporting units (that is very smart) and 3 warrior columns run forward, usually one can hit the flank. Remember that to hit the the flank of enemy unit it is needed that the charge begins in the flank's enemy 45º zone. Also charges are made unit after unit and they can block LOS of your own attacking units. As units of hte brigade that do not charge should stay in contact each other then you should choose of moving the thunderers to support with fire or move the warriors to support the fight (some stariway wierd formation could be made to partial support and conect the thunderers to shoot, but is not very elegant), unless you succeed another command roll, of course.
A lot of situations could ocurr during a charge distance in a game, I am just thinking in a satandard situation of Dwarf hammer vs regular 4row inf block with 10cm of separation.
Girocopter at the back of enemy brigade is definitiveley a devastating choice. The dwarf trap, it can grape shot and if enemy lost the combat they giros hunt down the broken lines while retreating and terminate them quickly (just put gircoptter to 1cm of the back of enemy brigade shoot and wait unitl Dwarf Hammer do his job)
Really nice this topic about games mechanics and tactics!
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Where did you find the numbers? Is that something I could look at, like tournament results online or something like that? That is the first time I have heard something good about the dwarves honestly, I thought my 19 year old self had doomed me to play the poopy dwarves for the rest of my life!!! LOL
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Hi, I re read my post and my english is so bad, I apologize. If something is not understood I could write it again in a moment no too tired.
some thoughts about armies here
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=315.0
If you are interested in the excel file (with the sources of players and battles) send me your email address and I will be please to send it to you.
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Another old topic
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4611.msg34148#msg34148
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your English is way better than my..... "anything other than English"....Portuguese?
you can send me the info if you'd like to cjbennett22@gmail.com Thank you.
Im sure it would make for a nice read as well as these old posts!
does any of the info have the army lists so that I could try them out myself? Thanks a bunch!
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... not portugese but spanish :)
I am afraid there are not such detail as armylist, but the last year I hyperlinked the games.
I'll send you the stadisitc file. About 450 games. Dwarves won 53 of 83 games played by different players so realiable stadistic.
Araby (13 won of 19), and Daemon (12 won of 16). Most of the games were played by Claus ( I great WM player) so maybe the stadistic for this two armies are not so reliable of how the armylist behave. They talk us about how Claus manage his armies :).
I have lost a lot of games against dwarves, so in my opinion they are a dangerous opponent. I game a few times with the dwarves and I have good time.
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just wanted to thank all the posters for their thoughts, this has been a really enlightening topic for me and I've learned a lot about my little bearded dudes! thanks! :)
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Yeah, me too! I'd happily see lots more of these kind of topics!
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one more thing I discovered. I doubt I was the first but found this to work very very well with the rangers.
2 rangers, in column side by side. In some of the rules clarifications in the warmaster magazine.....it escapes me where right now.....it explains that when in column the stands can still see straight ahead from their outside edge and straight along their side. So when I was attacked, there was only enough frontage for one cavalry (mind you there is actually enough room for more in front but for my situation, 1 unit). So I got 4 shooting attacks AND support in the fight. So now my rangers, which screen my flanks, set up on column instead of a line.
My brother was fighting me when I did this and he was starting to get annoyed that I was really taking advantage of some rules and called that one cheese but he had to agree that his elf archers should be doing that as well.
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That's not the way we play it here. Why would you ever want your shooting units in line then? Imagine the effect of a Dark Elf crossbowman unit or brigade in column formation moving up to within 11 centimeters. 6 shots per unit in the shooting phase followed by 6 additional shots before combat if the poor enemy unit decides or is able to charge next round.
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It's strange that Orcs are at 0% wins!
:o
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it explains that when in column the stands can still see straight ahead from their outside edge and straight along their side.
That's not the way we play it here.
That's not the way I'd play it either. If a unit can shoot to the side or rear, like Wolf Riders, then yes- they can all shoot from a column if their sides are in range and line of sight. A regular unit in a column though should have the front stand perfectly block the rear stand. You could off-set each stand slightly to get a lot more shots, but then you'd have issues with an irregular formation and no support in combat.
It really seems too powerful otherwise.
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one more thing I discovered. I doubt I was the first but found this to work very very well with the rangers.
2 rangers, in column side by side. In some of the rules clarifications in the warmaster magazine.....it escapes me where right now.....it explains that when in column the stands can still see straight ahead from their outside edge and straight along their side. So when I was attacked, there was only enough frontage for one cavalry (mind you there is actually enough room for more in front but for my situation, 1 unit). So I got 4 shooting attacks AND support in the fight. So now my rangers, which screen my flanks, set up on column instead of a line.
My brother was fighting me when I did this and he was starting to get annoyed that I was really taking advantage of some rules and called that one cheese but he had to agree that his elf archers should be doing that as well.
ILLEGAL PROCEDURE!
SHOOTING FROM THE FRONT, unless shooting all round is explicite stated, and even in that case the unit attacking needs to be in LOS for 2d and 3t stands in column to shoot !
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Just to be clear, so I am not explaining something really awfully and too make sure there isn't any language barriers, I have attached an image of the shooting range of the dwarven rangers against the charging silver helms
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in my opinion 2 and 3 stand of the column has the whole frontage block for the first stand. No LOS so they should not fire.
If you talking about wee formation (something not too polite) hey cuold fire but they are in irregular formation, but I guess there is no doubt in column formation.
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The image confirms how I interpreted the text so no language barrier (this time). :)
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Stand 2 and 3 are illegal shooters.
But, by putting stands 1 and 2 in each unit less then 5mm apart, forming an irregular formation, both 1st and 3d stands of each unit can shoot legally with a total of 4 shots.
And in the following combat, stand 2 in each unit will act as support.
;)
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issue 8 Q&A
no idea what I was thinking and my brother just went with it, might have negated a hit but I don't think so, no change in the game as I recall but, all cleared up now.
Thank you everyone for clarifying and pointing out my rulebreak.
As I looked through all of my scanned magazines I could not find it but I own 8 through 12 so I had a desperate look through them just because and there it was in #8, the pdf I have is terribly incomplete! lol
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Sorry for the delayed response.
"Hammerskelp, would you say that your dwarves win 50 percent of the time, or there about all things considered?"
I think the relative skill/experience of the players skews the numbers.
When inexperienced, I lost most of the time. Eventually that changed to winning most of the time.
That was another time, another place.
Now I'm mostly helping with the rules as I try to grow local interest in Warmaster.
Here, we describe a crushing victory over an opponent as a "Gentleman's draw" when asked. :)
As part of my Warmaster missionary work I have new Orc and Lizardmen armies for folks to use.
Last night we had 1500pt Bretonnian Vs Dwarf and Lizardmen vs Orcs.
In this case the Dwarfs were beaten (commanded by the less experienced player) by the Bretonnians (commanded by the slightly more experienced player.
In conclusion......If you love your dwarfs, you can learn how to win with them.
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I certainly do love the dwarves, They are just the right amount of fun. I am glad that my kid-self bought them all those years ago!
Looking forward to as many games as I can get in the future!
Thank you everyone for your amazing help in figuring out the dwarf army list. This forum is a blast
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found one more advantage to the "dwarven hammer" formation.
If you get hit by some cavalry, and they bounce. more likely it will be at least 1 unit in front and 1 on the flank. you now have 2 or more cavalry units, separated, in front of you. If it isn't too much of a risk to get out of formation for a turn, give them an order. move the thunderer out of the way, move a warrior in a line formation around the rear of the cavalry and then the other 2 warriors will attack the cavalry. With or without the Ranger's help, this pincer move was a really good blow when I was able to do it and I have no doubt that it will happen a lot throughout future games.
But with more cavalry on the way, early in a game. Probably do not want to get out of formation too badly. Happy gaming and thank you all for your help.