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Warmaster => [WM] Warmaster Fantasy Discussion => [WM] Alternate settings and proxy armies => Topic started by: Lex on November 14, 2011, 06:08:01 PM

Title: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 14, 2011, 06:08:01 PM
upcomming

with the return of one of the prodigal sons we will kickstart this into shape over the next days. I know that there are others "out there"  that have been working on this, so all input is welcome
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Dave on November 14, 2011, 06:24:06 PM
Bravos of Braavos, Axemen of Norvos...

You tease Lex.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 14, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
that is what all the girsl say too......

SPUTAC
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on November 14, 2011, 07:47:22 PM
Ooops sorry didnt notice this post before i posted in theother thread (apologies for the cross post)

Here is my work in progress Northern Army list:

Code: [Select]
The North “Winter is Coming”

Type Attack Range Hits Armour Command Unit Points Min/Max Special
Size per unit

Peasants/Levy Inf 3 - 2 - - 3 25 -/4 *1
Archers Inf 2 30 3 - - 3 40 -/4 -
*Infantry Inf 3 - 4 6+ - 3 55 4/8 -
*Household Foot Inf 3 - 4 5+ - 3 65 1/4 -
Crannogmen Inf 2 15 3 - - 3 35 -/1 *2
Clansmen Inf 3 15 4 6+ - 3 65 -/4 *3

Mtd Clansmen Cav 3 15 4 6+ - 3 80 -/2 *2
Free Riders Cav 3 - 3 6+ - 3 70 -/2 -
*Retainers Cav 3 - 4 5+ - 3 120 1/4 *4
Knights Cav 3 - 4 4+ - 3 135 -/1 *5

*General Gen +2 - - - 8 1 100 1 -
Lord Ldr +1 - - - 8 1 80 -/2 *6
Captain Sub +1 - - - 7 1 30 -/2 -

Options:

Ned Stark Gen +2 - - - 9 1 +45 -/1 *7,8
The “Greatjon” Umber Ldr +2 - - - 8 1 +20 -/1 *9
Stakes Include stakes with any Archers - +5 Any *10
Veteran Archers Inf 2 30 3 6+ - 3 +15 up-to *11
half

*1 = Unreliable
*2 = Skirmish
*3 = Warband
*4 = Shock
*5 = Knights
*6 = Noble Attributes
*7 = “Leader of Men”, all leaders and subordinates within 20cm of Ned Stark can give orders using Ned's command value
*8 = “Ice”, When attached to a stand and in combat you may force an enemy to re-roll 1 successful armour save
*9 = “Charismatic Leader” – Counts all rolls on the Noble Attributes chart as – Charismatic Leader, ie 1 command roll can be re-rolled per game
*10 = Stakes
*11 = Longbow

Peasants/Levy – Untrained and ill equipped, mainly used when numbers are of the essence, or in desperate times

Archers -  Lightly armoured  troops, not retained, recruited at need.

Infantry – Regular full time soldiers, equipped with spears, shields, helmets, and mainly leather armour with some chain.

Household Foot – Household guards, well armed and armoured with chain, helmets, shields, and handweapons.

Crannogmen – Skirmishing Infantry, adept in marshes and swamps, known to use poisoned weapons.

Clansmen – Mountain clansmen from the far North, lightly armoured in the main in leathers/hides, shields and some chain, yet ferocious fighters.

Mounted Clansmen – Make use of short stocky ponies

Free Riders – Mercenaries and poor Knights who can not afford the heavier armour

Retainers – A Lords Household and Household Guard. Including younger sons and minor lords.

Knights – Knights are rare in the North, but these represent those few that are there and powerful Lords and their immediate kin

Warden of the North – Since time immemorial the head of house Stark

Lord – A great Lord of the North such as an Umber, Karstark, Bolton, Manderley etc

Captain – Commander of the household guard or son of a Lord, or very minor Lord.





*Compulsory Troops per 1000pts = 6 units@405pts + General = 100
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 14, 2011, 09:30:58 PM
Looking at the various fights in the books I suggest we set up army selectors so that a player will need to make a strategic decision to field the army mounted or dismounted (for the Westeros list at the least !!)

This could/should be handled so that (eg. for the North list) the Household troops and Clansmen are fielded either as infantry OR as cavalry, but not as both

alternatively

This could be handled by setting a % of points to be spend on Cavalry vs infantry, and allowing certain specific units to become available at either end of the scale. eg. based on the North list.  Assuming the split is on 60/40, choosing for 60% foot opens access to Cranogmen as a unit option, while going for a 60% cavalry  force will allow you to take a unit of knights.

Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on November 14, 2011, 11:34:21 PM
Personally im all for keeping things simple, therefore i would go for your first suggestion, that is, choose at the start of the game whether to take your Clansmen and Retainers/Household guard (etc) on foot or mounted.

As you mentioned Crannogmen it got me thinking that they really should have special rule so that they disregard the -1 command penalty for dense terrain?

As a general comment, whilst working on this i realised that a number of Westerosi kingdoms are very similiar if not identical in military practice, for eg what difference would there be between a Stormlands army and a Riverlands army? I came to the opinion that it would all boil down to differences in min/max reflecting the size of population and wealth of each particular area.
 Fortunately Martin provides quite a bit of info on numbers of troops and the respective military abilities of each kingdom which is all nicely compiled at Westeros.org. Plus the military strengths were published in the Guardians of Order RPG with Martins approval. I have compiled all this in a word odc, which i can post here for easy reference if its thought useful.

Back to my point the army lists i have drafted for the following:

1. Stormlands, Vale, Crownlands, Riverlands, The Reach, Westerlands, vary only slightly and mainly in min/max rather than troop types.

2. Dorne, The Iron Islands, the North, Nights Watch, Dothraki, Wildlings do have more variation.

 Is that how other see it? Or am i missing some significant difference between the armies in group 1?


Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 15, 2011, 10:04:24 AM
SPOILER ALLERT

You might want to add a timeframe indicator to certain of the lists. Seeing how the Nightwatch would not be considered more then a contingent when fighting to hold the wall with Stannis. After that, when accepting the Wildlings to "join"and with Stannis leaving, it could definitly be seen as a force in its own right, but with a lot of added flavour.....

Another area where timeframing makes sense is the addition of magic(items)/users, which would not be proper for any events that happen before the start of the books, but which definitly part of the story unfolding.

Which leads to a load of speculation on the issue of Magic and the Seasons......  for which this is not the place  8)
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on November 15, 2011, 11:50:22 AM


*~HERE BE POTENTIAL SPOILERS~*








My lists were written with a date as at the start of the first book in mind, the only differences this would make(that i can think of) is that min/max numbers would be different later on in the series as the war of the 5 kings takes its toll, and the special characters that i have added to each list represent those characters from the early part of the series (so no Robb Stark - despite me having cut up a strip of Knights Panthers for a suitable model with a BOFA dire wolf as Greywind). However it wouldnt be difficult to add a postscript to each list, amending both min/max numbers and character availibility at various significant points in the storyline.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 15, 2011, 01:31:31 PM
Just mark spoiler allert and the significant parts of the text get colour + white........

And to go back to the original thread, I can make a strong point to set up the selectors so that you can only take certain units in combination (or restriction) of others. This wont terribly complicate things, but it would add enough flavor to make the games slightly more GoT.  In case people dont fight "by the book", the strategic choices to make before a battle are a major part of playing Warmaster for me (and others). A good example would be to allow  house Lanister the light horse and skirmishers brought to the fray when Tyrion is choosen as a commander.....

Two other things that springs to mind when doing GoT based list (and this is partly based on BoFA design and playtest) and subsequent discussion of the companions of the Rind, is that some characters should have the "ability" to be (permanently) attached to a unit (or brigade)

and

there are certain groups of individuals that warrant representation as a UNIT, although their numbers would no be representative of one as such. The best example that comes to mind is the Kingsguard.

Lastly, and I am not sure if you did not do so already, there should be the element of "turning coat", or to a lesser extend, the problems certain commanders would have ordering troops that are not part of their (lords) normal entourage.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on November 15, 2011, 02:24:11 PM


Some good points there Lex, and much to ponder.

As for the Kingsguard, after much discussion amongst my friends/playtesters, we came up with the idea that they are listed in effect as a mount option, ie, if the King is chosen as your commander then he can take the Kingsguard as a "mount" adding both plusses to his combat ability and potentially other abilities. I did initally want them as a separate unit, but this being Warmaster a unit of 7 men (no matter how tough) doesnt seem right.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on November 17, 2011, 08:07:30 PM
Here is my ASOIF stuff so far, the pic havent turned out as well as i'd hoped so if any one has any tips it'd be appreciated

http://www.flickr.com/photos/47050722@N08/?saved=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/47050722@N08/?saved=1)
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on November 17, 2011, 10:20:09 PM
Quote from: Happymcclap on November 15, 2011, 02:24:11 PM
I did initally want them as a separate unit, but this being Warmaster a unit of 7 men (no matter how tough) doesnt seem right.

A lot of the battles would allow you to assume a figure ratio of (almost) 1:1.....  but assuming you would go like 1:5 then their fighting prowess would give them an effective strength of a normal unit, and when you assum your ration is bigger, then there is simply retainers, squires ect that fight alongside them, but be honnest.....  how can you resist to have one unit with seven whitclad knights on the table.....
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: wellspring on November 19, 2011, 04:50:33 AM
The initial work on my take is in one of the posts below... I strongly strongly strongly encourage

First, I totally agree with HappyMcClap about most Westerosi armies having the same composition. The problem is that, first, what makes a Riverlands army all that different from a Vale army? And what happens when you have multi-region alliances all in one battle, as is very common. In the end, I threw the whole idea out.

A Song of Ice and Fire is all about the characters. So instead of housing your special rules in army lists, why not make them special features of the characters who you choose to lead your army? So Lannisters in general don't benefit from the Intrigues special rule, it's armies lead by Tyrion or Tywin that do. The Freys don't get their own special army list... instead you add some Frey characters to your army that makes some of the units into Freys (unreliable but numerous).

If you want multi-house alliances, then it's no sweat. Tyrion, Jon Snow and Dany all leading one big army? No problem. It also lets you shift alliances ad-hoc to match "historical" scenarios. The Florents supported Renly and later Stannis. With this system, you have no trouble with them switching sides. And the characters mean something. You don't pick a random northern lord and call him Roose Bolton, you pick Roose Bolton himself and get a northern (bolton) army as a result.

Because characters have such unique and interesting special rules, you don't need a bunch of army lists. The same basic army list lead by Eddard Stark plays very differently when the general is Mace Tyrell instead, and even more differently when the general is Oberyn Martell. The Kingsguard in my rules are characters, or you can take them collectively as a single Hero.

The army lists you can choose from in my version are: Westerosi, the Ironmen, the Free Cities, the Dothraki, and the Ghiscari. Dornish armies can choose to use the Free Cities list, if they prefer. Dany's army keeps changing, so I gave up trying to figure out a list for her.

Sellsword companies are a special situation. When you take a sellsword company, you get a package of units and characters. Sellsword units take orders from characters other than their own leaders at a penalty, and their characters get a penalty when trying to give orders to units other than their own. (Actually, the rules for the Freys are quite similar.)

In service to all this, I also made up a special rule to encourage players to use and abuse their special characters more. It's in the "house rules" thread and seemed to be received quite well.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on December 01, 2011, 05:43:48 PM
some interesting points there Wellspring, id be interested in seeing your method of devising lists in more detail. When trying to come up with more "standard" list did you use just Warmaster or did you also use the additions from WMA & WM?
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Lex on December 01, 2011, 09:55:36 PM
Due to a lapse in regular service (on account of Saint Nick visiting the area this weekend !) I wont have time to put up Happy´s work till early next week !!
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: wellspring on December 03, 2011, 04:18:05 PM
Here's the original topic I started last year:

http://sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=1522.msg9077#msg9077

Warmaster Ancients is the basis of my conversion. All of westeros uses the same army list (except the Night's Watch), but the characters change the game so you can have different armies play very differently. Some (Melisandre comes to mind) change the tactics you use. Others, like Freys, change the way existing units work. Still others like the Tyrells and Greyjoys modify the army list itself.

The list itself is pretty vanilla medieval. I think WMA rules are more appropriate for the grittier Westeros than the fantasy rules. Though if we include dragons, I'd use the High Elf dragonrider stats and give it a "sweeping advance" special rule that makes it able to keep following through as in the fantasy game.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on December 16, 2011, 01:14:16 PM
I really like your approach and the rules for the special characters - so much so that i have stolen your Roose Bolton rules for my own lists. It might be worth adding a Manderley character that will allow Northern armies extra knights.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: wellspring on December 20, 2011, 07:12:30 PM
Quote from: Happymcclap on December 16, 2011, 01:14:16 PM
I really like your approach and the rules for the special characters - so much so that i have stolen your Roose Bolton rules for my own lists. It might be worth adding a Manderley character that will allow Northern armies extra knights.

Thanks! I wrote all that before A Dance With Dragons. Manderly is definitely going in there (and I like him raising the number of knights you can bring), along with Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Barristan (I think I'll make him an upgrade for an existing General that gives them +1 Attacks and a 4+ save to ignore situations where they'd otherwise be removed). Ramsay Bolton and Jon Snow I'm not sure of.

If anyone wants to write up Pot Pie rules, I'd love to add them. ;)

I'm curious how to use wargs in the game (wildlings would use a different army list, of course, but the point still applies). I think I'll make it so it increases the command radius of one leader by 20cm. It'll have a high attacks rating (to represent the animals that accompany it) and a low leadership rating (not only are the wildling wargs poor leaders, they are unavailable to command while warging, and so aren't as effective).
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: Happymcclap on January 09, 2012, 08:00:52 PM
For Wargs (and in line with your exsisting lists), i would add it as a optional upgrade for wildling commanders, along the following lines:

 +1-3 attacks(roll D6, 1-2 +1, 4-5, +2, 6 +3) (warging a weasel isnt as effective as warging a bear)
 -1 command (for being notorious loners and unsociable)
and either the "ambusher" upgrade from WAA or simply a re-roll to repesent their ability to see more of the battlefield than normal, i wouldnt add to their command range as they cannot give orders via creatures they are warging into.

I'd also limit the upgrade to subordnate(wizard) lvl characters.
Title: Re: Songs of Ice and Fire, a Game of Thrones Warmaster Development
Post by: raia on April 08, 2014, 06:39:23 AM
Something new in this theme?