Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Experimental Rules Feedback => Topic started by: lastspartacus on September 07, 2011, 11:58:32 AM
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I have to admit, I'm stumped on this one, barring an overcomplicated method.
I have always found it a bit off that armor effects the outer shielding, but I really can't seem to brainstorm around it.
Any ideas or probable solutions?
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To hit vs armor
Then a shield saves
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Perhaps just leave it as is.
Or very straightforward.
Shield value (perhaps different per race) is 5+ for Imperial Navy (for example).
So a Lunar prow on is hit by batteries. It has 2 shields (5+) and armoured prow (6+.)
Opponent rolls eight dice: 5,5,6,1,2,4
In old situation vs 6+ hits one shield would be downed. However in the separate shield value it would mean shields down (2 times 5) and one hit to hull (the 6).
So a big negative to the armoured prow of the Imperial Navy, from 1 shield down to 2 shields down and a hit.
If you make shields 6+ the abeam will get really thick.
So you see, keeping as is ain't bad without re-adressing complete balance.
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Not fan of do have this generic. The campaign upgrade exists (as other things have it as well) that a blastmarker is negated on a roll of 6.
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Shield saves give the non-active player a chance to roll dice and participates in the defense of his model
I consider this a plus from a player experience - interaction with the game/rules
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It could also be a downside -> rolling after rolling in case of brace for impact. Which is a negative.
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If the shield functioned as a save, would its usefulness still be determined by the ship's armor?
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It shouldn't. If a ship had 5+ shield save then 6+ armor wouldn't improve it. Shield saves could work. Instead of a set number of shields, each hit lets the ship save on a 5+. Going on BFI would improve this to 4+. But then again, it would mess up the hitting vs armor. Have to reevaluate further.
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Blatantly ignorant, I will toss in my take.....
There is lots of examples in literature and on screen of what "shields" are..... and what they would keep out (or not).
If I read my fluff correctly, the shields on Imp (and other ships) also keep the Warp at bay ? which would make them more energy shields as anything else.....
Scifictiontional Science would imply that an Energy Shield works best vs material weapons (and VV), So, IMHI a working shield would influence the to-hit for projectile weapons, as it stops part of the incomming hardware it would lessen the chance of a significant hit.
Energy weapons otoh would easily overload a shield and take it out and score a hit, but it would lessen the impact on the hard target behind the shields. So energy weapons should drop their "potency" when shooting.
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So a system where the shields stay active and potentially save all (or none) damage rather than asborbing a set amount of hits before going out? If I understand it right, armor would still effect the amount rolled, since higher armor would mean less shots needed to be saved. Hmm.
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Yah I thought of that kind of thing, Lex, like allowing different kinds of weapons to offer different effects, but that just got too complicated. Besides, though there are different 'counts as' shields in the game, the typical void shield functions by warping away the brunt of the force.
The best way would be just have a different 'armor' value for shield, for realism. Opponent rolls it one at a time until shields go down.
But that would just take too long, I think. I mean, I really like it, that way you could have different armor for shields and hulls.
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So ? the basic to hit is 4+ ?
Anything shooting material bits (be it broadsides, shuriken, cannonballs and whatever) would go to a ? +1 ? to hit whilst there is still and active shieldstrength. Crits on a ship could bring down SS.
Anything beamy and rayie would drop dice for each active shield, so shooting at a 4SS ship with 5 dice of beamweapons would effectivly be one attack (at basic to hit).
Now it also make sense to use E-type weapons before M-type ones to peel away shields and blastmarkers could still do "their thing".
Just remember that I am more MoW oriented then BFG, but I do some design for a living..... 8)
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The principle of an energy shield is that it converts the energy of an incoming attack into another, less aggresive form, since energy cannot be destroyed or removed, it can only be converted or exchanged. This is why there is often a 'flash' as an impact strikes the shield, which converts the energy of the attack into light.
However, it does depend a lot on how the shields are designed. Possible outcomes could be...
- shields stop low power attacks
- shields have a chance of stopping an attack, no matter what the power level
- shields reducing the incoming attack
- shields work against physical/energy attacks only/differently
- shields work against 'fast' attacks and not 'slow' torpedoes/attack craft
- shields provide an overall cover, or have to be focussed (see Robotech/Macross, for example)
And there are a lot more, and these dont include Eldar shields which are not really shields at all but ECM.
I always assumed that Imperial shields were fairly primitive defences, working against all 'fast' attacks (weapon batteries, lances and other similar attacks), that they were 'all or nothing' - so they didnt reduce the power of an incoming attack, but either blocked it completely or did nothing. I assume that the mechanics of shields were drawn from the Titan shields in Epic.
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With shields as saves I would then change bfi to p2s (power to shields) where power is diverted from other systems to bolster the shields. IMO this makes more sense than batten down the hatches of bfi
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One thing differences in shields and armor would do is weaken Imperials and need a cost revalue. But on my personal project im using d12s, so maybe their hull armor could go up to 12 to compensate :)
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Regarding this discussion having ideas is nice but you really need to go all the way and check it all. A small change can cause massive balance friction.
And when you end up changing 50% of all other things as an effect of shield / armour seperation you'll have to ask if it is worth it.
So far I'll stick to rules as is. :)
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You're absolutely right Horizon, but this discussion IS for people who are interested in thinking about that, as I think we all realize its a big change to the core rules :)
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andalways better to have a good discussion BEFORE.... and focus on one or two suggestions to work out and test through
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Well, if we go with shields saving hits, we don't have to recost it. Adding more shields might be the way to go instead. Shields normally saving on a 5+ with BFI improving it to 4+, then add more shields to ships (+1 to every ship?).
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So if you save, you lose a shield, if you don't it goes straight to hull damage?
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Yup.
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Admiral, what happens in this example. Cruiser, 5+ armour, with (+1) 3 shields is being shot at.
Opponent rolls 3 dice: 3,5,5.
Thus 2 hits.
Defender rolls 3 dice (non bfi, 5+ to save):
rolls: 4, 4, 5
Means 2 blastmarkers (4's) and one hit on armour?
BFI would have saved all, but 3 blastmarkers. Next round of fire no save, no shields, no roll for BFI. (?).
This system leads to more explosions, ships going down a lot faster.
Currently a roll of 5 5 to hit/damage vs a Murder is 2 hits vs shields.
This system, 5 5 to hit followed by 3 shield save (roll 3,3,3) means 2 hits to hull.
Quite the difference.
This system
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Hello everyone,
I recall a similar system in the game 'Full Thrust' (you can find rules on the ][nternet, but I have the documents also). This game tries to make a more realistic simulation of space combat, based on what we know today. I shall have to post more on realism in BFG (studying biophysics and physics, I find this an interesting area; BFG isn't really so bad in terms of realism, with the premises of the WH40K universe) at some other point, but in Full Thrust shields work as a 'screen' of sorts.
With Full Thrust, battery strengths are represented by how many dice they roll, and armour is represented by the number of hull points you have; weapons roll a fixed number to damage ships and the resilience of the ship is entirely accounted for by hitpoints. For each class of batteries, a different number of dice are rolled at each range, and each class has a different maximum range. E.g. Class A batteries, the most powerful, have a max range of 36", roll 3 dice from 0-12", roll 2 at 12-24" and roll one at 24-36". On 'unscreened' = unshielded ships, each roll can cause: no effect for a 1-3; 1 damage point for 4-5; and 2 damage points for a 6. Screens have the following effects: Level-1, ignore rolls of 4 that hit; Level-2, rolls of 5 and 6 only cause 1 damage point; and Level-3, only rolls of 6 cause damage, at one point per 6 rolled. Screens are not considered mandatory and escorts generally don't mount them at all! Cruisers have Level-1 and Capital ships (the biggies in Full Thrust, their classification system is a little different to BFG) have Level-2 or 3 depending on their mass. They also have an interesting critical hit mechanism (I will provide details if anyone's interested).
Some of these other ideas remind me of the Necron shielding system in BFG.
Out of what is described here, though, I like Lex's idea that projectile weapons (= weapons batteries?) have different effects against armour and shield than energy weapons (= lances) do. Of course, one must remember that 'primitive' Imperial shields are far in advance to what we have today.... I'm not sure if they are such a primitive system though, seeing as Imperial fleets get by pretty well with them; perhaps they are just a different tree of technology (a Dark, Old tree, if you get my meaning... :) ).
Some thoughts, anyway, even though the shield system does work quite well (perhaps, like in Star Trek, ships in BFG incorporate some kind of shielding into their hulls, such that armour 6+ is actually better shielded?).
One final idea: this system need not be more complicated than the current one. What if all shields provided a armour value (depending on race, perhaps) but otherwise worked the same as now? For example, an Imperial cruiser has a shield value of 5+ on all facings. So when attacked, the enemy must roll a 5+ to cause a hit. These hits place blast markers, as usual. When shields are gone, revert back to the armour values. This system does require armour to be more robust once shields are down, though, because armour then plays a small role in the game. As it is, BFG ships rely upon shields to survive, otherwise they get shredded by fire quite easily. It is, perhaps, a quirk of the system that armour is much less valuable than shielding, which has both pros and cons.
Thinking Stone
PS: Lastspartacus, 12 valued armours are the best! Do you have a thread for BFG:Advanced?
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Im kindof a fan of going with the ships with multiple armor values have tougher shields in those areas also. Ork ships are built to run head on and they dont worry, or think..., about anyone comming at them from behind so they have their strongest armor and shields to the front, middeling armor and shields at the... middle and weakest at the rear. Same for IN they typically have shorter range weapons and are therefore built to close on the enemy with stronger shielding and armor to the front.