Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Experimental Rules Feedback => Topic started by: lastspartacus on November 29, 2010, 01:26:28 AM
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For the player who wants more orkishness in his Orks, and who believes that the random weapons mechanic is a clunky, time wasting mechanic that does not convey in a fun way the character of the fleet. For those who want their BFG orks to have more WAAAGH! and less WAAAAA! :P
Homebrew rules I'm posting here for the amusement of the board. RS stands for right shift, a way to identify the ruleset from the old one.
The creation of the ork fleet list followed a few guidelines:
Make them mean on the frontal arc
High firepower but inaccuracy
Partial strengthening against AC
Stay low leadership and hard to manouver
Define clear roles for the battleships.
Ork racial rules:
+1 to boarding value
Ork ordnance is hit on 3+
Ork capital ships may choose large bases
All ork vessels that make use of Ordnance can choose to launch boarding torpedos and assault boats
cap ships with leader may swap LD with other ship/squadron without boss/warlord
Orks always suffer a right shift on the gunnery chart
Automatic 2d6 AAF
Ramshackle: Before special orders are made, at the start of the Ork player's turn, roll a D6-1 for every ork capital ship and apply it to the critical hit chart. Due to the simple nature of Ork starships, Ork Capital Ships automatically repair one critical hit in the end phase, in addition to those repaired by rolling repair dice
Mob Rule: Ork escort squadrons may contain up to 10 ships.
Optional Rule- Wut you say?:
When a special order is failed, roll the SO dice. The result is the SO to be used. It is still treated as a failed roll for purposes of continuing SO orders.
Kill Kroozer- 145
Battleship/10 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/5+/4+ Turrets:2
Prow Gunz 14 30cm
Prow Heavy gunz 8 15cm
Port/Starboard Gunz 8 30cm
Port/Starboard Heavy Gunz 6 15cm
*May replace prow heavy guns with str6 torpedoes.
Terror Ship-160
Battleship/10 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/5+/4+ Turrets:2
Prow Gunz 10 45cm
Prow Heavy gunz 6 15cm
Port/Starboard Gunz 8 30cm
Port/Starboard Launch Bays 2
*May replace prow heavy gunz for str6 torpedoes
Assault Kroozer-165
Cruiser/10 Speed:20cm Turns: 45 Shields: 1 Armor: 6+/5+ rear Turrets: 2
prow bombardment cannon 3 30cm
prow torpedoes 6
port/starboard heavy gunz 8 15cm
*Soopa Engines
*Ignores blast markers for purposes of boarding
Onslaught 35
Escort/1 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/4+ Turrets:1
Prow Gunz 6 30cm
Savage 25
Escort/1 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/4+ Turrets:1
Prow Heavy Gunz 4 15cm
Ravager 40
Escort/1 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/4+ Turrets:2
Prow Gunz 1 30cm
Str 4 Prow Torpedoes
Brute- 25
Escort/1 Speed:25cm Turns:90* Shields:1 Armor:6+/4+ Turrets:1
Prow Gunz 2 30cm L/R/F
*Counts as HP4 for ramming
Grunt 30
Escort/1 Speed:25cm Turns:45* Shields:1 Armor:6+/4+ Turrets:1
Prow Gunz 3 30cm L/R/F
*Counts as HP4 for boarding, must use large base.
Kroolboy- 280
Battleship/12 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:2 Armor:6+/5+ Turrets:3
Prow Torpedoes 8
Dorsal Gunz 4 45cm L/R/F
Port/Starboard Gunz 16 45cm
Port/Starboard Heavy Gunz 8 15cm
Gorbag's Revenge- 300
Battleship/12 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:2 Armor:6+/5+/4+ Turrets:4
prow gunz 10 45cm
prow torpedoes 9
dorsal bays 4
port/star gunz 8 30cm
port/star heavy gunz 4 15cm
port/star bays 2
Slamblasta- 280
Battleship/12 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:2 Armor:6+/5+ Turrets:3
Prow Lances 4 45cm
Prow Gunz 14 45cm
Dorsal Launch Bays 4
Port/Starboard Gunz 12 30cm
Port/Starboard Heavy Gunz 8 15cm
Dethdeala- 235
Battleship/12 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:2 Armor:6+/5+/4+ Turrets:3
prow heavy gunz 16 15cm front
dorsal bombardment cannon 8 30cm Front
port/star gunz 12 30cm
port/star heavy gunz 8 15cm
*soopa engines
Hammer class- 200
Battleship/10 Speed:20cm Turns:45* Shields:2 Armor:6+/5+/4+ Turrets:3
prow gunz 14 45cm
prow bombardment cannon 4 30cm
dorsal bays 3
port/star gunz 8 30cm
port/star heavy gunz 6 15cm
Space Hulk
Defence/40 Speed:10 Turns:Special Shields:3 Armor:4+ Turrets:6
*WIP
Ork Rok-80
Defence/8 Speed:10cm Turns:Special Shields:1 Armor:5+ Turrets:1
Heavy Gunz 4 15cm All Around
Gunz 10 45cm All Around
Torpedoes 6 All Around
*Roks may turn by using the AAF special rule, sacrificing any extra movement to move in a different direction.
Current warlord rules stay the same, but are called warbosses. May take an ork warlord at 1500+ that gives +1 LD, or a Big Mek that lets you buy more than one upgrade.
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Gubbins
Ork ships vary wildly in design. While Bosses always get the best loot, any Ork ship may show some kind of alterations to suit their captains. A
/X represents point cost for escort squadron.
5- Ram Prow. Cap ship only. +1 to ramming dice..
15/20- Klaws. When initiating a boarding action, roll a D6. On a 4+, regardless of the boarding result, the ships are considered to be locked in combat until one or the other is destroyed, or the boarding Ork ship is crippled. May not be used if ship is crippled. If one ship has more base hits, it may move at half speed.
Boss Gubbins
5- Maniac Gunners. Ship gains +1 on Lock On rolls.
15- Looted Dakka. Torpedoes need +1 to hit. Every 3 heavy gunz exchange for 15cm forward lance, rounding up
15- Mad Meks. Ship may reroll Ramshackle result, the second roll standing.
10- Advanced Tellyporta. Ship may make hit and run attacks up to 30cm.
25- Extra Power Fields. Ship gains +1 shield.
10- Maniac Turrets. Ship gains +1 turret.
Bosses
All ork leaders must be placed on capital ships. Fleets of 500 points or more must have a leader.
40- Big Boss. For every 500 points, a Big Boss may be purchased.
Must be assigned to a capital ship, and the ship he is assigned to doubles his boarding value. Additionally, he comes with a reroll, and mega-armored nobs, which allows the ship to roll an extra d6 in hit and run attacks, taking the highest. May buy up to 2 extra rerolls for 20 points each.
May take one Boss Gubbins upgrade.
40- Mekboss. Replace any front firing heavy gunz with a shokk attack lance. May take any amount of upgrades on his ship. Comes with one reroll.
One per 1000 points.
80- Warlord. +1 Leadership. Doubles boarding value, comes with fleet reroll and mega-armored nobs. May purchase up to 2 extra fleet rerolls for 20 points each. Only one may be included, and a fleet must be at least 1000 points to have one. Must be assigned to the most expensive vessel, but does not have to be assinged to a hulk. May take one boss gubbins upgrade.
Clans
Goffs- Gain +1 to boarding actions and +1 leadership to ramming. Brace for Impact rolls for Goffs are taken at -1 leadership.
Evil Sunz- Ships gain +5cm speed. Ships may not use Burn Retros special order.
Bad Moons- Gain Maniac Gunners upgrade. Enemy ships always treat Bad Moons ships as if on Special Orders.
Deathskullz- Ships gain Looted Dakka upgrade. Deathskullz ships reduce their speed max speed by 5cm. Deathskullz Escorts move as cruisers.
Blood Axes- Capital ships may take a refit from the Imperial refit table for +10 points the cost. Escort squadrons of at least 6 ships may replace up to three Imperial escorts at their listed cost. Deathskullz ships may not carry a leader, and may not benefit from fleet rerolls.
Snakebites- May only use Roks and Hulks. They gain +1 to BFI rolls. They may not make use of the Lockon special order.
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Edited to include my idea for an Assault Kroozer. Input demanded! :D
Next step is pricing, which will be a balancing act of base stats vs. the orky negatives of battleship movement, rightshift, and random criticals.
Edit: Got the escorts priced right in the sweet spot, i feel.
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I have not read any of the above rules. This is not a case of TLDR, but rather more of a mental exhaustion when it comes to Orks, since I don't really like them in any form (fantasy, 40k, etc). Also, I feel that they can be fixed completely with an across the board (differential) price decrease. They're crap, but more of them would work. This equates to more Orks, which is more hordelike and gives more dakka. Done. The only other alteration to fix Orks isn't an Ork alteration (except in passing). Fix turret suppression rules, making Ork FBs just function as low strength bombers OR fighters. So no special rules for their FBs beyond what is absolutely necessary.
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Also, I feel that they can be fixed completely with an across the board (differential) price decrease. They're crap, but more of them would work.
This was my thought originally, Artagnan made me think a little differently about the kroozas at least. Escorts, yes, points decrease. Kroozas; firepower increase to match points value. BB/BC, one with points decrease, 1 with firepower increase.
It's complicated, but what really struck me is that reducing the current KK to an appropriate cost would be somewhere around 140-145 points, which is way too absurd for a cruiser class vessel. Horizon said that it would limit the capacity to make new ship designs, as it would make a 'slaughter' effect. I.e why would I buy a light krooza when I can get a kill kroozer for 40 points more?
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It's complicated, but what really struck me is that reducing the current KK to an appropriate cost would be somewhere around 140-145 points, which is way too absurd for a cruiser class vessel. Horizon said that it would limit the capacity to make new ship designs, as it would make a 'slaughter' effect. I.e why would I buy a light krooza when I can get a kill kroozer for 40 points more?
This price seems fine to me. I don't see any reason why Orks would want anything between an escort and a kroozer. They would want bigger ships, not smaller. So 14 hit BBs and 16 hit Megabattleships.
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The ork fluff states that orks really can't do anything too large, it is hard to maintain and design systems on a battleship, so their battleships are really just grand cruisers. Not to mention the fact that an ork ship is so likely to get blown up before it gets to the grand cruiser stage it is amazing they would get even there.
So far there have been five ships mentioned in the fluff that have ever passed cruiser displacement (significantly) the 4 listed in armada, and the Wurldbreaker from Rogue Trader.
Larger ships are countered by the fluff, and it defeats any swarm mentality. Orks could have a larger ship, but it would have to be a character, and they don't need it.
People may want to give the character BBs more hits, which could be done, reasonably. However I would like to see more outcry amongst the community before that happens. I would rather have them dirt cheap, 2 hits would cost likely 20 points each, not all that much, but it is substantial.
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LOL, I love this board. Hours of thought, days of waiting, and finally post of...'havn't read it'
I am curious what you think of the rules Sig, since I incorporated one of your rules into it to make it a very Orky feeling fleet.
And as much as I would love a character 14-16 hit battleship, fluff states that Orks can't even handle battleship sized vessels, kroozers being the size they are because the Orks in their mad desire for the biggest and the best can only get to that size, but for a few character examples.
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I've read through it, and it is an interesting idea, decent version of an Ork list. Sorry but I don't really have a comment, and this will be more of a personal preference type deal.
The ork players on the waagh had an interesting revision a few years ago, based on non-random weaponry and each ship choosing a weapon system for each hardpoint. It was a decent idea as well, but that one was too complicated to be realistic as a revision. Random firepower represents the fact that not all ork kroozers are similarly equipped, however they have heavy guns and guns in every arc. The guns are somewhere between 3 and 8 in the front arc, but rather than have a player choose and remember, this is just randomly determined.
You could roll at the beginning of a battle for it, but that would suck, a lot.
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LOL, I love this board. Hours of thought, days of waiting, and finally post of...'havn't read it'
I am curious what you think of the rules Sig, since I incorporated one of your rules into it to make it a very Orky feeling fleet.
And as much as I would love a character 14-16 hit battleship, fluff states that Orks can't even handle battleship sized vessels, kroozers being the size they are because the Orks in their mad desire for the biggest and the best can only get to that size, but for a few character examples.
I know it's not the ideal response, but I was just letting you know why there was a dearth of replies. In the case of the Eldar, they were so broken that a complete rewrite became the only reasonable course left open. Even in that rewrite a good deal of their profiles were left the same, so they were not completely different ships, merely different rules. When I say broken, I mean really BROKEN. Doubly so in fact. They were both too strong and too weak at the same time. If you followed the optional rule for scenario and battlezone selection using strategy ratings (and why wouldn't you? SR is supposed to be an advanced rule that more accurately reflects a races ability to choose their engagement after all) then the Eldar would almost invariably gain enough terrain to win with little to no casualties in return. Otherwise, if you just plonked down some terrain randomly, or were using tournament tables (which are renowned for having too little Eldar appropriate terrain) then the Eldar were far too weak and got blown up pronto.
The Orks on the other hand seem to just need a few tweaks. Whether that comes as a general reduction in cost, a select upgunning of a few ships, additional flavour rules, a tweak to the way their fleet commanders work or some combination of these then that seems like it would be sufficient.
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Granted, most of the motivation for RS Orks came from a general dissatisfaction with how the Orks flowed during a turn, random dice was too much book keeping and time consuming, and Orks were only decent on the highest dice. My rules I think give everything a defined role they can actually be good at. Kroozers can actually sometimes choose to shoot rather than board and it be an ok option.
However, if you noticed what ive noticed on the boards, everyone is selling off their 'worthlessly underpowered ork fleets' and have no interest in them, because many playgroups see them as a joke fleet if you aren't min/maxing ordnance. I see the Orks as needing help almost as much as the Eldar did, but thats just my opinion.
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:/ I'd buy a cheap $$$ if I get the chance... so far I see no one selling around here...
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Try bartertown. I got mine for 30% retail. :)
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Ok, tentative points up for all but the battleships. Don't be gentle, its difficult in my point to points correctly without playtesting, though I need something to start off with to playtest. This weekend!
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heavy gunz lowered from 14 to 12 on kroolboy. Just too much for a dorsal anything.
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Tentative points costs down, hulk and roks incoming, commanders and upgrades incoming.
I need to know though, its kinda vague. are they ship rerolls or fleet rerolls, on the warlords.
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Had a good test with 2 lunars and a gothic vs 3 kill kroozers and a warlord on one with maxed upgrades.
The Orks got smashed in the first 2 turns, lances and favorable torpedo volleys crippling one and causing thruster damage to another.
Orks managed to tough it out long enough to get in the 15cm band where they really shine, and were able to cripple a Lunar, though a combination of abysmal leadership, forced squadroning, and 15cm turns allowed for only one lucky boarding action, which the ork vessel lost (!?) due to the special orders it was on and the low hits it was at. The Imperials were able to manouver away from boarding actions, finding orks with BM contact to be terribly easy to get away from. The random criticals worked exactly as expected, a Kill Kroozer lining up more than once for a nasty 15cm broadside or frontal fire, only to have that arc knocked out for a turn >-<
All in all, the kroozer at least I find to be very balanced. It amazes me when I look at its raw stats, but it may even be 5 points overpriced, as one on one a Lunar seems to decimate it. One thing I can say though is that when slightly beefed up, Heavy Gunz did some impressive damage, though met by equally impressive brace rolls -_-
Next test will likely be the Assault Kroozer or the Terror Ship.
I am happy to say that while the capital ships are fun and characterful, their weaknesses I hope keep RS Orks an escort heavy fleet.
I am even thinking of 3 to 1 limitations on non-waagh fleet lists, like the cyclops cluster one, for escorts to cap ships.
Input wanted! Especially on points costs.
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I'm even more unsure of how to price carriers. The Terror Ship for instance is more costly than the Kill Kroozer, as is standard for carriers.
But is it right for RS Orks? The Kroozer is effected more by the battleship movement, but the Terror has a 2/3 chance of 33% of its ordnance being knocked out, every turn. The Kroozer at least will usually have the option to turn and bring another system to bear, but the Terror suffers an inescapable output reduction. Still not sure about the Assault Kroozer either, but at this point its better too pricey than too cheap.
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Run into some snags. Would an ork hulk really be able to muster str3 level shields around the whole thing? Would it really have a turret density of 6?
Without randomness, what would be reasonable for its bays and torpedos?
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New points tweaks up.
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Added Rok with what I feel is a better turning mechanic. Edited Assault Kroozer.
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Fun idea for an optional rule.
"Wut you say?"
When a ship/squadron fails a leadership roll, they roll the SO dice and test again for the result.
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What is the point in this wording:
"Ork capital ship may sacrifice 1 repair dice in the end phase to automatically repair one critical hit."
Given that no-one in their right mind wouldn't do this, why bother phrasing it with a "may"?
Also given how little difference one extra repair dice normally makes, does reducing it just needlessly complicate things? Revision:
"Ork Capital Ships automatically repair one critical hit in the end phase, in addition to those repaired by rolling repair dice."
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Good point RC. Will edit that.
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Fun idea for an optional rule.
"Wut you say?"
When a ship/squadron fails a leadership roll, they roll the SO dice and test again for the result.
iirc Warmaster Ancaris at Port Maw had the Ork rule that if they attempted a SO and failed the SO dice had to be rolled and the result that appeared will be executed.
eg, Orks want do a Lock On, Ld fails, SO dice is rolled --> Burn Retros.
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Well thats interesting. So therefore its auto-passed? One way or another, the Orks will get an SO?
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Yep, but not the one they want ......
See it as a crowded Ork ship where an order is shouted and the ones receiving the message here is wrong...
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Yeah, and the order is mandatory. So if you get CTNH you must attempt to turn twice, or BR you can't move over half your speed.
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That sounds like a lot of fun. I suppose it does do a bit of time saving. Without the potential to fail though, that will make for seriously crazy ork ships :)
And a 1/6 chance you get the SO you wanted anyway, so yay :)
I personally feel it should be an optional rule, like Dying Race is to MMS?
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On a roll of BFI I'd apply no orders.
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I'm not sure this "Right Shift" mechanism will have quite the effect you anticipate.
For a start, a right shift has no effect on the rightmost column of the gunnery table. This means that a right shift and firepower boost actually improves the orks long-range firepower.
Then, because of the non-linearity of the gunnery table, a right-shift harms high firepower values far more than it harms low firepower values.
For example, RS+1FP results in pretty much no change for FP up to a value of 5. The rightmost column on average is also mostly unchanged, with the odd extra dice, whilst FP12 and over loses at least 2 dice in almost every circumstance (bar the rightmost long-range column)
If you make it RS+FP3, then the rightmost column gets an extra D6 on 60% of occasions, FP3-11 usually gain at least a D6 in the two leftmost columns, whilst FP16 and above are still losing at least D6 in all but the rightmost column.
You would be making orks better at >30cm range and individual escorts/low firepower ships better at short range, whilst nerfing any squadrons or battleships.
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I'm assuming the last sentence is the basic thesis.
Firstly, I don't think Orks, due to their strong escorts and need to squadron, will be firing much in the low end of the chart.
Also, the idea of RS Orks is that the Orks put out a larger amount of firepower than is normal for their ships, but the massive defeciencies and inaccuracies on the ships lead to average firepower. While hindering the overall firepower, the sheer weight of fire does allow for better chances against escorts and ordnance.
As to long range benefits, its a double shift, so I wouldn't consider firing at the extreme right of the gunnery chart to be too scary.
Also, RS Orks don't have much that can shoot over 30cm. str10 on the Terror Ship, the Ammer class gunz, and half the unique battleships.
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Also, on cap ships, Ramshackle makes the firepower unreliable.
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made some adjustments to the hammer, dethdeala, and kroolboy. Switched names on the BB's, and made a tweak.
Slight nerf to Rok.
For 'Wut you say?' I was thinking, shouldnt it still count as a failed SO for purposes of continuining the SO's?
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Trouble deciding if current Onlsaughts are worth 35 or 40.
I really would appreciate input on points cost.
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This is what I mean regarding the right shift not having a linear effect:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/rcgothic/RightShift.jpg)
Top Left is the gunnery table.
Top 2nd from left is the gunnery table right-shifted.
Top 3rd from left is the difference in dice between the gunnery chart and a right-shifted version. As you can see, the rightmost column is unchanged, whilst the chart really haemorrhages dice at high firepowers.
Top Right is the difference in dice if the chart is right shifted with a FP increase of 1.
The Bottom row show RS plus FP 2, 3, 4 and 5.
As you can see, the rightmost column gets steadily better as you add additional FP, representing a buff to the orks long-range firepower.
The bottom of the chart also gets steadily better; by the time you get to +2FP, FP6 and under is almost without exception improved. At RS+3, you can be pretty confident that FP13 and under probably won't be worse than without a shift.
Meanwhile, the upper end of the chart still haemorrhages dice. If we were thinking about IN Dominators, on the regular chart 2x FP12 isn't really any difference from FP24. Ork ships using the RS rules would be far better off firing individually than grouped: The hypothetical 2x FP12 or 1x FP24 does 2 or 3 times worse than if they were firing individually.
If you think about 5 FP4 escorts on RS+3, they get an additional 10 dice in the leftmost column compared to the standard chart, and lose 1 dice in comparison when firing together. That's an 11 dice incentive to only take minimally sized squadrons.
Now if you're happy with this I guess that's OK, but remembering to add an extra modifier, combined with the fact you're buffing the RH side of the chart whilst nerfing squadrons, seems like a lot of faff to me just to put a higher stat in the profile.
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If it became an issue, it would absolutely be acceptable to get rid of RS and lower everyones firepower by 2-3.
I havn't had an issue remembering it, more than any other race's special rule. Just as Eldar get their left shift for accuracy, and Orks and their dakka is a well known fact, I thought RS would be a natural way to represent their innacuracy but enthusiasm. Not to mention explaining why heavy gunz dont left shift.
The intent was indeed to make it so that orks, through weight of fire, had crappy shooting but always would have a few shots hit home due to weight of fire.
Also, the 'gubbins' and clan upgrades havn't been added yet, but the leadership issue is a big reason not to bring escort squadrons, besides the greater value in squadron upgrades. Orks love squadroning.
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Added a WIP of gubbins and such. Input!
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More tweaks. Biggest consideration currently is price of ravager and onslaught. Input welcome. Got a 2000 point game against all demiurg fleet to test it out.
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For pure simplicity, I am considering your points on the right shift, RCGothic.
Had a 2k fight against admech a week ago. Here are my rough conclusions:
Ork leadership is a big negative. I got my one big salvo of torpedoes off, and never got a RO for the rest of the game, mainly due to need for either AAF or BFI. If would like to see how it would have done if it had gotten higher leadership rolls.
I am considering if 2d6 AAF, even if 'free', is worth it. With superior long range bombardment that the AM have, I found all that AAF did was negate blast marker speed reduction. It was a planetary assault scenario, something Orks should absolutely excel at, yet by turn 5 I had made it 2/3 of the way to the planet, between 2d6 AAF and need to BFI. This was compounded by forced squadroning.
10 escort ork squadrons are scary, but very unwieldy.
Even with a big increase in Ork shooting, at extreme close range, I was only able to do decent damage.
It was altogether rather one sided. The forces broke down thusly:
Dethdeala
3 kill kroozers with ram prows
2 terror ships with ram prows
2 assault kroozers
10 savages
8 brutes
4 onslaughts
3 big bosses, one on the dethdeala with mania gunners, two on the assault kroozers with extra power fields.
vs
Omnissiahs Victory
3 lunars with novas
4 endeavours
6 falchions in 2 groups
all cap ships with the advanced weapon refit allowed in the alternate admech rules.
After an inconclusive first 5 turns fighting only the lunars and battleship, with the planetary defences and the endeavors yet to be dealth with, I conceded and let my friend go see his girlfriend:)
Thoughts?
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LS, although I do like your RS idea, the problem with having such short range on EXTREMELY SLOW vessels is that they usually won't be able to fight with long range weedy foes. I would give some weapons 45cm, even if it's just a little.
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I wish it wasn't necessary. 45cm range, in my heart, feels rarer than the standard Ork kroozer.
I would rather AAF be naturally taken on 4d6. Giant engines feels more Orky than long range guns, wouldn't you agree? I don't feel it naturally breaks them.
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Yeah, that's right!!!