Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Experimental Rules Feedback => Topic started by: lastspartacus on November 13, 2010, 02:22:53 AM
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My friend has admech, but we are both somewhat unhappy with the randomness of the refit table.
Assuming that you paid graduating points for the upgrades from 1-6, what would be a reasonable cost set for these?
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I like the idea of paying for admech upgrades as long as there are no duplicates within a fleet
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Agreed
as it stands some upgrades are indeed much better then others.
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Right, and should be costed as so.
I think the most important thing is to roughly figure out, out of say, for cruisers who pay 35 extra points base, what the refit roll is worth.
You have an extra turret and a 60cm dorsal lance in there as well, modified slightly by weakness to boarding actions.
I don't understand your multiples comment though. There should only be 6 capital ships in the fleet?
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Is there any chance that something like this will make it into the FAQ? I love the AM fleet, but I can't stand the idea of not knowing (ahead of time) what characteristics my fleet will actually have. If I wanted randomness, I would just play Orks.
-Silent Requiem
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And I'm a big advocate of that going away too, yucky clunky mechanic!
And hey, you never know :)
But we would have to come up with something first. I havn't set down and calculated yet, but as I said, first thing is seperating turret and lance from the cost.
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This is where I'm at so far. I've extracted the value of the lance and turret on the cruisers, wieghed against the weakness to boarding, at 15.
Thats the base increase every cruiser gets. Now, its time to do a scaling value to the refits as it relates to the Admech fleet. Not saying 3 will cost more than 2, for example, but will be at least equal, or greater.
Heres what I have so far, if things need rearranging, send input!
1. Emergency energy reserves
2. Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix
3. Advanced Engines
4. Fleet Defense Turrets
5. Repulsor Shielding
6. Augemented Weapon Relays
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GTM
FDT
AE
EER
RS
<space>
AWR
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You know what I think would be a fantastic refit? Auto-loaders. Allows ships that have successfully gone on RO to immediately attempt a second order (LO, AAF, whatever).
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@First post:
You think EER are pretty good? I mean I know of course it has its uses, but its something that only benefits you once your ship is halfway dead, a 'makes you less f***ed when you are f***ed' kind of thing.
I had GTM in above it because it allows for competant firepower while manouvering, something of an IN weakness. For example, a Lunar would only lose str2 batteries from it, and maintain str4 batteries and 2 lances per side, and the 60cm lance, while doing a special manouver.
I valued FDT higher because, combined with naturally higher turret values, it can render Admech ships incredibly resilient to Ordnance.
@Second post:
Thats a really powerful ability. My first thought is that it would be the only ship-specific refit, with only the Dictator and Defiant being able to use it, and quite powerful.
On the other hand, I do realize that AC in the IN, and especially the Admech, comes at a very high premium, and so should be powerful.
Edit: Forgot about torps, duh. So in this case any ship could take it, but the AC carrying ships benefit more from it. This requires some thought.
And while I'm at it, if anyone else has some characterful ideas, since 6 refits for a d6 is no longer required, be sure advocate your own thoughts.
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@First post:
You think EER are pretty good? I mean I know of course it has its uses, but its something that only benefits you once your ship is halfway dead, a 'makes you less f***ed when you are f***ed' kind of thing.
I had GTM in above it because it allows for competant firepower while manouvering, something of an IN weakness. For example, a Lunar would only lose str2 batteries from it, and maintain str4 batteries and 2 lances per side, and the 60cm lance, while doing a special manouver.
Ya, EER is good. Ships get crippled all the time. Reducing the effectiveness of your opponents offence is a great bonus. This is particularly useful when the ship with EER is placed in a squadron with another ship and used as the meatshield. GTM is far too situational and depends upon you being in a bad position in the first place. In which case, since you're pulling yourself out of that situation, the biggest boon comes from the manoeuvre, not the reduced penalty for doing so. If it removed the penalty altogether then it would be a good refit because it would allow you to more aggressively use these manoeuvres. As it is you still only use them when you're boned.
I valued FDT higher because, combined with naturally higher turret values, it can render Admech ships incredibly resilient to Ordnance.
FDT is simply 2 massed turrets to the target and 2 less massed turrets for the ship. Yay. If I want to mass turrets I'll just put some ships in base contact. Shared shield rule isn't much of a downside, and at least both ships will benefit from massing effect. This refit would be much better in a fleet that wasn't so strong against ordnance in the first place.
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I didn't realize that it didnt allow you to use your own turrets if used in a fleet defense role? strange. maybe that should change.
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Maybe it should. It has no effect on bombing runs, so the FDT ship and its target would both count as having normal level of turrets as far as number of attack runs are concerned. All this upgrade does is shift where the dice are rolled. Which isn't too bad if you can guarantee it was on a ship that was likely to hang back like a Mars (which the AM can't get strangely enough ...) or a Dictator refit to essentially function as a Mars (range upgrades and NC swap). But if you get this on one of your line cruisers then you could very well assign the FDT to defend one ship only to find that your opponent then redirects all remaining AC to the FDT ship and hammer its now very weak 1 turret defence.
Just as a side note: if you purchased a Dictator (255 pts) with upgraded range (10 pts) and a NC (20 pts) and happened to roll the AWR refit this ship would be very very close to a Mars class CB with targeting matrix. Both ships would have same hits, speed, armour, shields, AC, broadsides (including range and left shift) and cost and same range and fire arcs on the dorsal weaponry. The Dictator would lose one third of its dorsal firepower (1 lance which counts for 2 hits on a roll of a 6, meaning an average of 0.67 hits instead of 1 hit), but it would have 2 more turrets.
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Well, we don't need to have exactly six refits, and we can tweak each of the refits available. I, for one, would advocate some kind of refit that allows a ship to trade some prow armour/weapon for upgraded sensors (like the emperor) giving +1 leadership.
Anyway, we would simply require at each one of the capital ships to purchase at least one refit at the stated cost. We could even add the standard cruiser refits to the list (nova cannon, upgraded weapons, etc). So there would be about a dozen refits to chose from.
We would have to drop the cost of a Magos Veneratus, though, as his "choose your refit" would no longer be relevant.
It's also worth doing away with the sub-plot table. It is neither fun (wait, you mean some of my ships could randomly explode at the start of the battle?) or fluffy (the IN has plenty of protracted campaigns, but none of them require you to start a one-off game with damage on your ships). Getting rid of that disadvantage would probably balance out the premium that the AM pays for their ships, allowing us to simply cost the refits appropriately.
-Silent Requiem
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The refits should be a must though. So a ship must purchase one.
However, upgrades like turret +1, dorsal lance : standard or choice?
Subplot: we never ever use this.
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I agree that each ship should be required to take at least one refit. The extra turret and lance should be an addtional requirement, because they really give flavour and a sense of the AM style to the fleet.
Not using the sub-plots is fine in small groups, but I don't think anyone wants to have to convince every new player he meets that they should just ignore what is (foolishly) written into the rules. It also makes a difference if someone wants to enter a tournament - even a local one. Lets just get rid of a bad idea.
-Silent Requiem
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@Sig:
I like the idea of changing fleet turrets, as current its a bit wonky that it can't use its own turrets like a ship in btb massing turrets.
And yes, it is wierd that a MARS class isn't in admech lists. They seem to not want innate novas to be had.
@SR:
Good point on the Magos, hadn't considered that. Maybe discount on next refit and lowered cost?
Write it up if you have a refit idea, though I think no more than 8 should be found in the final tally, personally.
Standard cruiser upgrades should be seperate, IMO, as it would prevent you from usually having more than one.
I like the idea of the subplots, though they need some reworking. I think it should be at the Admech player's discretion if he wants to use them at all or not in the game.
@Horizon
Of course, I forgot to mention of course that every ship must take a refit. Lance and turret are mandatory as well.
Simply because Admech cruisers are so pricey already, I'm aiming for a 5 point refit option, preferably one of the currents. Think 5 points is too cheap for one of the weaker admech refits?
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The Archmagos wouldn't have to change, since they don't currently give you the ability to choose your refit, they give you an extra refit of your choice. So 2 refits, instead of 1.
Mind you, the Veneratus needs to come down in price. But this is just because it's waaaay too expensive.
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Hi,
Agreed, the standard Magos for 50pts is fine. Veneratus is obscene.
On the Mars: Sigoroth made an observation not a statement. The AdMech has (fluffwise) no battlecruisers. But their Dictator can be equipped in such a way it is almost a Mars.
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I'm not sure we need to limit the number of refits per ship. AM is a list for people who want to soup up their ships. As long as the refits are costed properly, is it really a problem?
I think the AM have the potential to be a really, really interesting list, that is very character driven (a rarity in the 40k universe). We just need to remove the randomness that prevents people from building that character into their list.
In a sense, a Magos Veneratus is like a Rogue Trader, seeking knowledge/profit on the stellar maine, only the Magos has the backing of Mars, and his mission is holy. His ships will all be customised to his mission and his methods. I doubt any fleet would be more meticulous about selecting the right tools for the job than the AM.
-Silent Requiem
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It is a fun fleet, and you are right in your points. I just think a long list of refits would be confusing and diluting for admech player and opponent, not that I would mind a few more.
For the 'choose your refit' on the Magos, as has been said before, some refits are way better than others. I was thinking more a cheaper magos and pay 50% of the refit that comes with him.
@Sig:
I thought of a caveat for the Auto Loaders refit, if we go with that, to balance it out. 'Auto Loaders are completely automated machine spirits, failed RO on vessels with Auto Loaders may not be rerolled.'
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For the 'choose your refit' on the Magos, as has been said before, some refits are way better than others. I was thinking more a cheaper magos and pay 50% of the refit that comes with him.
Let's assume that, for the moment, all we're doing is changing the 1 random refit into 1 purchased refit. So you choose which you want, and pay the price (presumably while reducing the base price of the ships, since these already include the cost of a random refit). Now, the Archmagos used to give you 1 extra refit of your choice (ie, AWR). With the payment method we can do the exact same thing. You purchase 1 refit. When you add an Archmagos at +50 pts you get a Ld 8 admiral and a second free refit of your choice. Obviously this will mean that you choose the most expensive refit to be your "free" refit, but big deal, you do that anyway as it stands. No difference. Therefore there's no need to change this rule unless you're thinking of changing the number of refits allowed.
@Sig:
I thought of a caveat for the Auto Loaders refit, if we go with that, to balance it out. 'Auto Loaders are completely automated machine spirits, failed RO on vessels with Auto Loaders may not be rerolled.'
Well, it wouldn't need to be completely machine spirited. Since the ratings and technicians of the AM are half machine anyway and probably wouldn't respond so very greatly to someone up on high cracking the whip then we could get away with "mostly" machine spirits. Same effect, just not quite so absolute. As for the game rule, I'm down with that.
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With the refits I have in mind, there could be a near 30 point difference from the weakest to the strongest, and one of my goals in altering the refits is less random, more choice. Part of that choice would be the option for cheaper vessels than vessels balanced around average refit value.
Thats why I want a 5 point refit option, so that the most basic Admech Lunar would sit right at 200.
Here is what I'm thinking. Strip the Magos down to a bare bones and cheap, pure leadership admiral, that allows and must include another purchased refit with him.
As to costs and the like, base cruiser cost would now be +15+refit. Then 45cm guns and special torps/nova choices as normal admech.
I'll say right now, if it wasn't obvious, that light cruisers and battleships will have adjusted refit costs.
Can anyone think of a suitable torp replacement option for str4 torpedo light cruisers?
If the HA just refuses to help the Voss patterns, I say make the dorsal lance they proposed an automatic admech inclusion, just like on the cruisers.
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Voss Cruisers haven't been given S4 torps, they have remained at S2.
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ya, that was an 'in theory' bit, since my playgroup will likely keep str4 torps.
FDT says only one ship may be covered, at the cost of your own ship. Is there any limit to normal massed turrets? IIRC, Ships in btb can add a turret to any ship in btb as many times as needed. If doing that with 2 turrets at 15cm is too OP, why not just make it just like massed turrets, 1 turret but 15cm range?
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Here are the base prices of capital ships in the Admech fleet list, sans refits. Leaving the Ark alone for now.
All Voss patterns incorporate standard a 30cm dorsal lance.
Emperor 370
Retribution 350
Oberon 340
Dictator 235
Tyrant 205
Lunar 200
Gothic 200
Defiant 140
Endeavor 130
Endurance 130
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Refits Points
1. Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix- 5
2. Fleet Defense Turrets- 5
3. Advanced Engines- 10
4. Emergency energy reserves- 10
5. Repulsor Shielding- 15
6. Augmented Weapon Relays- 20
Light Cruisers deduct 10 points to a minimum of 5.
Battleships increase by 10 points.
archmagos are 50 for the ld8 one and 75 for the ld9 one, each includes a reroll. Up to 2 rerolls may be purchased for 50 each.
Ships embarking a magos must purchase a second refit.
new price of omnissiah's victory is 400 points, and must embark an archmagos veneratus.
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Sounds sensible to me.
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Is Augmented Weapons Relays really worth 40 points on the Ret?
Autoloaders could be another refit, and so could Prow Sensors. The latter, I think, is very much in the flavour of AM... after all, these would be the instruments with which they take scientific readings of celestial phenomena.
Also, I doubt anyone will take FDT in their current form, as they are only situationally useful. Suppose FDT gave every ship within a certain radius two extra turrets (but only re: AC or torps). Increase the price, but end up with an upgrade that every fleet would want at least one of, especially those that are ordinance light.
-Silent Requiem
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Well if you think about it Silent, 40 points for the best upgrade available puts the Ret only 10 points more than its original random-refit cost.
I do realize its an upgrade that will never be taken by the carriers, and I was considering a points reduction for those that had it, but I just don't wont to overcomplicate the process any further. Will think about it.
Autoloaders and Prow Sensors I will include very soon for review and opinions. What exactly would the sensors entail? Lose armored prow for extra leadership? That could be an option outside of the refit table, like novas and increased battery range. Someone who knows precedent better than me: Is it in any way not kosher for prow sensor cruisers to carry torps? Or has it just not been done yet?
The FDT's current proposal is to work just like normal btb massed turrets, but at 15cm. Sound ok?
The points costs were made on common sense and no hard numbers crunching. If anyone has opinions on their worth versus cost, let yourself be heard.
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Refits Points
1. Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix- 5
2. Fleet Defense Turrets- 10
3. Advanced Engines- 15
4. Emergency energy reserves- 20
5. Repulsor Shielding- 20
6. Augmented Weapon Relays- 30
7+. ???- ?
Light Cruisers deduct 10 points to a minimum of 5.
Battleships increase by 10 points.
GTM - 5
FDT - 5
AE - 10
EER - 10
RS - 15
AWR - 20
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Problem with AWR: it isn't the same "value" for all vessels. Even battery/lance ships are still different and on some it worth a lot more.
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I'm aware of that, Horizon. But it needs to be costed right for the heaviest thing. Maybe it can be adjusted.
Some benefit for ordnance ships as well, such as resilient attack craft or some such. Oh, heres a unique idea.
Resilient torpedoes? :) I feel free to suggest such things because ordnance is SO expensive in admech fleets, its practically impractical.
Some refits will be more desirable for some ships, like auto-loaders for instance.
Sig, as an admech fan, I like those prices of yours. But I feel its too powerful for the points you pay. Do you realize at your current pricing, ships with AWR, the best upgrade by far, are exactly the same price as when they had to roll randomly? There needs to be incentive to play a normal IN fleet too :)
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This is a fantastic Idea! looks like it hasn't been touched in forever....