Specialist Arms Forum
Battlefleet Gothic => [BFG] Experimental Rules Feedback => Topic started by: lastspartacus on October 07, 2010, 06:10:28 AM
-
So I just came into possession of about 3k points worth of necrons.
Necrons were my 40k race when I played, but the fleet suffers from a few problems to make it an interesting and long lasting fleet.
1. People do not enjoy playing against Necrons. Yes, they are very expensive, and even one destroyed ship can turn the battle.
But try telling your opponent to buck up, when you disengage after taking a couple casualties and most of their fleet lies burning or crippled, they won and should be happy!
2. Necrons don't have any variety. Its going to be pretty much the same fleet, time and time again.
3. Necrons are no fun in campaigns. No refits, no upgrades, no defences, nothing more than a glorified pirate to boot.
I'm looking to get rid of those three poitns.
I'm looking to formulate some house rules for the Necrons. I don't want to go too far, Necrons are supposed to be the most advanced ships out there. On the other hand, I would like to cut back a smidge and increase variety.
So, as I work on a very rough draft PDF, does anyone have any advice right off the bat?
-
Ok, here are some questions and thoughts. Please address each point individually, it helps me.
1. I keep hearing the term 'Nightmare Field' thrown around, what is it? Is that an old name for the Sepulchre?
2. Change Sepulchre to a simple -1 LD to ships within a certain range, like a mark of Slaanesh.
3. Ok. I was going to write about how I was going to fix the Tombship. But going over Smotherman, yes, just a rough estimation, and hard to do special stuff like Crons, but I gave it way more than I feel the special stuff equaled, and I got this:
Entered in the base stats. Gave it 6 shields as there was no place for Reactive Hull. Gave it str28 batteries instead of 20 to represent always closing. 7 Lances to represent 6 special lances. 3 launch bays to represent 3 portals.
So end up with a ship with tons of extra goodies just in case the special Tombship abilities are worth more than I think, and I STILL end up with a ship that Smotherman says is only worth 425.
So how is the Tombship overpowered for 500 points?
More to come, but first I need to be enlightened in this.
-
Ok, here are some questions and thoughts. Please address each point individually, it helps me.
1. I keep hearing the term 'Nightmare Field' thrown around, what is it? Is that an old name for the Sepulchre?
Yes, it's a Sepulchre.
2. Change Sepulchre to a simple -1 LD to ships within a certain range, like a mark of Slaanesh.
I like it as is, the only thing I'd change is allowing to to be fired when on Lock On special order. Just as portals and SPG's should be able to as well.
3. Ok. I was going to write about how I was going to fix the Tombship. But going over Smotherman, yes, just a rough estimation, and hard to do special stuff like Crons, but I gave it way more than I feel the special stuff equaled, and I got this:
Entered in the base stats. Gave it 6 shields as there was no place for Reactive Hull. Gave it str28 batteries instead of 20 to represent always closing. 7 Lances to represent 6 special lances. 3 launch bays to represent 3 portals.
So end up with a ship with tons of extra goodies just in case the special Tombship abilities are worth more than I think, and I STILL end up with a ship that Smotherman says is only worth 425.
So how is the Tombship overpowered for 500 points?
More to come, but first I need to be enlightened in this.
The Tombship is definately not overpowered. Traditionally 2 Scythes are better than 1 tombship (even with Sepulchre). In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing the reintroduction of the Energy Drain weapon that they used to have, even if only for a Sepulchre equipped tombship. Again, have it able to be used while on Lock On, as all Necron special weapons should.
-
Whats the energy drain do exactly?
And yes, I agree now, at least on paper, that the Tomship, if anything, is quite overcosted! @.@
That was an unexpected discovery.
-
Energy Drain - 10 cm range, target ship takes Ld test. If passed, no effect. If failed, Tombship recovers 1 damage point, next turn target ship counts as crippled if not already OR as a drifting hulk if already crippled. Can't be used when crippled or on orders.
-
Thats very interesting. It always was interesting to me that necrons didnt have a regen option, considering what they are made out of. Or nids for that matter.
So its only counts as, correct? Pretty cool. Id say if done to an escort have it only allow repair of a crit for free, say. But definitly has promise, though it would be a pricey weapon.
I'm considering another option I know they used to have: Scarab swarms.
-
Also had Scarabs before IIRC.
-
General fleetwide ideas for comment:
Inclusion of Scarab ordnance. Scarabs would be 15cm fighters that could also, when attacking a ship, make one strike as if it were a boarding torpedo. Make them pricey options. Make it so that they 'cling' to a ship, aka are not removed at the end of the phase, rather function like a hostile CAP, and must be totally cleared by turrets.
Remove the turning ability from necron AAF.
Remove the number of solar pulses from the fleet, keeping it on perhaps 1 ship, and making a high points escort class with only a solar pulse, that does not squadron.
Addition of some variant of an energy drain weapon.
Fleetwide 5+ reactive hull saves, standard.
Perhaps change lightning arcs from always closing to left column shift.
Thoughts?
Edit:
Along with addition of scarab bays to the fleet, fixed directions on the particle whips, all lightning arcs become l/r/f if they werent so already.
Portals become only way necrons can make HnR attacks, for simplicity.
Scythe and Tombship weapon redistribution to make them slightly better at hitting multiple targets, and worse at directiny fire at a single target.
jackal weaponry changes to str2 batt and front firing particle whip.
Dirge weaponry drops to str2 battery.
-
Havnt done points yet, but otherwise, here you go.
Sparty's Devilishly Clever Necrons
Necron Special Rules
Lightning Arc
Advanced necron weapon batteries seek out the enemy with coiling lightning tendrils.
Necron weapons batteries always benefit from a left column shift.
Starpulse
Unchanged
Guass Particle Whip
Unchanged
Portals
Necrons do not use normal teleportation technology, and may not make normal HnR attacks.
Instead, they may make teleport attacks up to the number of portals equipped on the ship
Sepulchre
An ancient evil rests here, of incalculable malice and presence, beyond the comprehension of mortal understanding. Necron technology harnesses fear incarnate into a palpable 'nightmare field' stretching for thousands of kilometers of space.
Vessels within 30cm suffer -1LD. One per fleet.
Harvest Beam
A nearly unique design of impossible science, used by the necron's dark lords to slowly absorb the stars themselves.
Applied outside its original purpose, it is still a potent but unruly weapon to steal the life from enemy vessels.
Power is forcibly pulled from the drives of the target vessel, and if its crew cannot regulate and cut the flows of power to combat the inexorable pull, they will find their ship's vitality stolen until the plasma drives can replenish.
Capital ships that fail an LD check suffer Energy Drain, and behave as crippled at the start of the opponent's turn, and drifting hulk if already crippled.
10cm range, front arc. Target ship must be have no shields up. Necron ship gains an HP on a successful drain. Escort vessels hit are destroyed outright.
Can't fire if firepower is reduced for any reason.
Reactive Hulls:
All necron ships are defended by reactive hulls, rather than shields. They always recieve a 4+ save from damage, though with no negatives to firepower. When under BFI orders, Necron reactive hull saves become 2+, however the compromise of their stealth features for energy increase causes -1 to their armor until their next turn.
Additionally, Necrons that choose to attempt repairs in their End Phase do so on 4+ rather than 6+, but the extra repair energies cause -1 to their armor until their next turn.
Boarding Actions:
Necrons are very powerful and technologically sophisticated. However, the warriors inside Necron vessels are slow to respond to threats, those that are not in statis usually situate around key points such as portal chambers. Therefore Necron ships roll 2d6 when involved in a boarding action, using the lowest result.
Inertialess Drive:
Insead of normal AAF, necrons roll one D6x10cm.
Disengaging:
Necrons may disengage without testing. Necrons may fire on their own hulks to keep them from falling into enemy hands.
Ordnance:
Necron ships make use of Scarab Swarms, manufactured by the thousands in factory complexes aboard their ships.
Given time, their gauss-enhanced mandibles will make a ruin of the most heavily armored ship systems.
Scarabs function as fighter markers, with an exception. When Scarabs come in contact with an enemy ship, treat scarabs as boarding torpedos against the ship's weakest armor. A scarab marker is not removed until the ship is destroyed, it penetrates the ship's armor and initiates a hit and run attack, it is removed by the controlling player to bring out more ordnance, or it is destroyed by a turret. The ship suffers an attack run from whatever scarabs remain at the end of every ordnance phase.
Speed: 15cm.
Necron Critical Chart
2 Prow Systems Offline- duh, and lightning cant shoot out of damaged arc.
3 Starboard Systems Offline- duh
4 Port Systems Offline- duh
5 Stabilizers Damaged- Ship may not turn until repaired
6 Drive Damaged- Reduce movement by -10cm until repaired
7 Relic Disabled- Sepulchre or Harvest Beam taken offline until repaired. If neither apply, ship suffers +1 damage.
8 Specialist AI Failure- Ship may not go on special orders until repaired
9 Reactive Command Failure-ship may not make reactive hull saves until repaired
10 Command Core Damaged- Reduce ships LD by -3 until repaired
11 Hull Breach- +D3
12 Bulkhead Collapse- +D6
Necron Fleet
Cairn class tombship
Battleship12, 25cm, 45, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 3 turrets
Lightning arc 30cm 20 L/R/F
Particle whip 45cm 6 L/R
Star pulse
Portal 5
May take an artifact
'Guardian' variant may Particle whips for 4 scarab nodes on port and starboard, for a total of 8.
Scythe class harvest ship
Cruiser8, 30cm, 45, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 2 turrets
Lightning arc 30cm 10 L/R/F
Particle whip 45cm L/R
Portal 2
May take a Sepulchre
Shroud class light cruiser
Cruiser4, 35cm, 90, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 1 turret
Lightning arc 30cm 10 L/R/F
Portal 1
Same special rules
Does not suffer negatives to armor for BFI or repairing criticals
Ghoul class factory ship
Cruiser4, 35cm, 90, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 1 turret
Lightning arc 30cm 3 L/R/F
Launch bay 2 scarabs Starboard
Launch bay 2 scarabs Port
Portal 1
Jackal class escort
Escort1, 35cm, 90, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 1 turret
Lightning arc 30cm 1 L/R/F
gauss particle whip 1 30cm Front
Dirge class escort
Escort1, 45cm, 90, reactive hull, 6+ armor, 1 turret
Lightning arc 30cm 3 L/R/F
Periapt class escort
Escort1, 25cm, 90, reactive hull, 6+armor, 0 turret
Star pulse
Thats it for now. stay tuned for the necropolis and world engine.
Mind in the Machine:
A necron Lord must lead a fleet of 1500 points or more.
Platinum level Necron Lord- +2LD and 2 rerolls
Gold level Necron Lord- ld9 and reroll
-
Edits. Cleared up alot of book keeping. No more scarabs sticking around clinging to your ship. Balanced out the variance of the ship classes.
Still unsure if escorts should be moving around at 50cm. Still unsure whether or not to allow turning when necrons go AAF.
Pretty solid on Special relics on the battleships.
-
I quite liked the scarabs hanging around! Very Matrix Reloaded. :D
-
I liked it too, but I figured people might find it confusing. I'll consider returning it :)
-
Some big changes. I set into this hoping to reduce the ships in cost. I still intend this, slightly, though I still feel prices should be kept high and model count lower than your average fleet. Firepower has decreased somewhat, defense has increased somewhat, with the tactical thinker of wether or not to brace or repair damage.
Decided to get rid of most of the variants, they weren't needed. Especially after reading that necrons possessed few ship classes because the few they did had advanced to near perfection.
Considering ditching any extra VP rules entirely, as they dish out a lot of VP purely for being as pricey as they are.
-
I fancy the idea of scarabs holding on to their target. Act as fighter yes, but remaining in play as a hostile CAP will pose problems (launch limit etc). Instead they should cause a hit n run like a-boats thus removing the marker and keeping it simple. Maybe making them resilient (basically t-hawks) or ignoring effects of gas/dust and BM's as their hull adapts to the surrounding and so on.
-
Also allow the necron to deploy "dormant" scarabs which should act like a "minefield", and be activate by proximity of enemy vessels.....
-
Well, at least it gives a fluff answer for if necron use minefields for planetary defence :) good idea.
As to launch limits, you could just disband the scarabs like normal. I think I forgot to say that, editing now.
-
Another thought for discussion: Are cron escorts 'too damn fast'?
Was thinking 40cm would be the absolute max for them. They just shoot past their intended target. Also, while necrons have access to Inertialess Drive, when under 'normal movement' you would think they were not so insanely fast.
-
so, why did you decide to standardize all the reactive hulls to 4+? It also doesn't say that bracing reduces armor from 6+ to 4+, or if it does I missed it. Any reasons for those changes? It would pretty much well nullify weapon batteries when shooting at necrons, leaving lances as the only reliable option.
-
It does make Necrons tougher to batteries. The 4+ saves were so that they would be roughly as well defended as shielded ships.
They do take a hit to armor, but only -1, so 5+ rather than 4+ armor. However, if they attempt to repair criticals, thats also -1 to armor, so could still get down to 4+ armor. I felt Necrons needed some more durability, as they are the most advanced race, yet their light cruisers and smaller had paltry defenses compared to similar sized ships of other races. Also, its a well known fact that Necron ships, on average, are grossly overpriced for what they bring to the table. The only reason I can assume is ability to focus the entirety of their firepower.
Right now what is ruminating in my head is the weapons loadout. Gauss Whips are localized currently in the 'DINF'. The intent was to have a bit more general firepower at the expense of less focusable firepower, to keep a necron ship from completely pwning another ship into the dust.
I did this because the key things necrons are known for is their durability. Their firepower is potent, but I personally found all that focusable nastyness very Eldar-like, and I wanted the feel of the necrons to be different than their mortal enemies.
So my question is, is focusable firepower something people feel is 'right' for necrons? Is the fleet missing something by lacking the ability to pour firepower onto one ship? Is it missing something with the limitations on what gets a star pulse?
-
I think ive decided to go back to the original 'moving particle whips', but only left and right.
One thing that has been bothering me is continued necron fragility. Eve nwith 4+ saves universally, its very much decided on chance.
Shields are great, automatic damage soakers. Necron defences feel too random. These are supposed to be the most difficult to damage ships in the galaxy. Yet, if a necron ship has bad dice, it goes down just like a shieldless ship, which is very easily. Conversely, with perfect dice, you have an invincible ship against shooting.
Any creative ideas?
-
Idea: based on the fluff from the Necron World Engine.
Phase Shields. A form of shield that also works against ordnance. Some kind of tight barrier that forms a second skin around the vessel.
Alternatively, it could be described as the reactive hull being worn down from sure saves to rolling for saves.
-
Oh I like this idea. Something like a healthy cruiser ignoring the first hit each turn, then saving on a 2+ until it takes a hit, then 3+ saves for a cruiser with 1 damage, then 4+ saves for a cruiser with 2 damage, etc, as the self repair and shielding systems become compromised. I wonder if it could be balanced and uncomplicated.
Maybe BFI could do something like have it count as if it were undamaged for save purposes.
-
Balance shouldn't be too difficult. I don't think people would object to necrons being the most difficult to damage/destroy ships in BFG, just like it is accepted that Eldar should be the hardest to hit. Even if it means tweaking their damage output slightly.
Uncomplicated though...that will require a few more night's thought. You know, on-the-clock thought ;)
-
While I love the idea of revisiting the Necron fleet and tweeking them some. I have some very very very nighmarish games to recall where in a 2000pt game I focused fire from every single ship, id lost none at this point yet, on the Tomb Ship and the damn thing saved all 12 hits it would have suffered if it had a 3+ instead of a 2+ or if it had a straight 4+ it would have been 37 hits. Yet instead it came out with 0. And the next turn the necron fleet proceded to gut 4 cruisers and detonate my BB without having to LO. The next turn I managed to finally inflict 2 wounds into the TS with the remainder of my firepower and my Torps managed to score a single hit against an escort but it braced and saved on the 4+. They disengaged right after this.
Thats just one of them. In the 6 times I have had the misfortune of playing against them I have only crippled a single Cruiser, and inflicted a total of 18 other unsaved hits spread across the TS LC and escorts. So durability definatly is not an issue they have. I bring an even mix of AC/Lances/WB's/Torps with my IN and I usually roll on the high end for total hits even without LO and still I am unable to inflict even a moderate amount of damage on this fleet list.
I have a near even record with pretty much every other fleet list out there. And though Eldar in all forms give me nothing but headaches if they make one mistake I can paste them. Necrons have no such weakness, some say Boarding but really, lets be honest. Anything that reaches them is going to be in piss poor shape and loose any boarding regardless of what you roll outside of Orks with Mega Armored nobs and a Warboss by the time you get that close. They zip across the board in the first turna nd the second lock on and obliterate at least 2 cruisers worth of ships without much issue.
I am not saying that this is the universal experiance, though it may come off that way. Just the only way ive seen it happen in our gamming group. The necron player actually stopped playing them because he didnt have much fun knowing he was going to win by a landslide every single fight. Just wanted to show that the "near invincible" version of the Necrons makes people hate them vehimitly and refuse to play them.
-
Hi Guys,
I've given the task of improving the Necron fleetlist and ruleset much thought over the years. Here's my two pence:
Firstly the number of special rules should be as limited as possible while still keeping the theme.
Special victory point rules should be dumped as they don't cover many scenarios victory conditions!
Leadership should be highier than normal, +1 Ld. (No idea why it wasn't from the first draft!)
Normal Critical chart! port, starboard and prow affecting lightning arcs in those arcs, dorsal being particle whips.
Living Metal: 4+ save versus ALL damage caused. Including boarding and damage caused by criticals, but not the critical effect.
BFI: a 4+ save as normal. In the end phase repair critical damage on 4+'s and hits lost on a 6+!
Lightning arcs: WB's that always count targets as closing but have to shoot the closest target! LArcs's should always be LFR! (this will reduce the value of larcs while making them characterful).
Particle whips: Lance that passes through shields when it equals or beats the targets armour!
Starpulse generator: Range equals remaing hits in cm, otherwise same as normal.
Portals: not a weapon! Simply makes necron teleport attacks have range 30cm!
Campaigns: Refits and leadership increases explained as the ships slowly bringing their allready existing special systems online. Obviously having a unique refit table!
Ships speed: Tombship 25cm, Scythe 30cm, shroud and jackal 35cm, dirge 40cm.
AAF: normal!
Inertialess drive: CTNH may turn like ordy!
-
...continued.
No Nightmare Field or Sepulchre! This was ridiculous! If anything this should be a leadership bonus and that's it! Like an admiral! :D
Disengaging: this should not be automatic! But should instead be automatic on CTNH! (Inertialess drive)
Tombship: Reduce Particle whips to str5 but increase range to 60cm.
Reaper(Scythe variant): current scythe stats, may have a sepulchre(admiral).
Scythes: Reduce particle whips to str 3! Increase larcs to str10!(LFR)
Shroud: 6hits! +2 Str to larcs. +1 turret. Stealth; wbs suffer right shift!
Jackal: +1turret, lose portal! +1 larc. (LFR)
Dirge: Larcs LFR.
-
I think I'm going to playtest this... Daddy likes.
-
An idea that's a mix of the certain absorption of normal shields and the always save of current necrons:
Forcefields – instead of void shields, which use warp technology to interdict weaponry at a distance , necron vessels use a sophisticated array of forcefield emitters to project an incredibly powerful skin-tight barrier around the vessel. This second skin is incredibly difficult to suppress entirely and still provides some protection long after other shields would have failed.
After the forcefield has absorbed hits equal to its starting damage capacity, the necron vessel receives a 4+ save against hits that would have struck the hull. For each successful save, place another blast marker in base contact to represent the hit being absorbed by the forcefield. When the number of blast markers in contact is double the shield capacity, this save is reduced to 6+.
When a necron vessel braces for impact, instead of receiving a 4+ save its shield capacity and repair dice are doubled. Forcefields also save against attacks from ordnance and ramming.
-
I'm really not keen on the idea of launch bay equivalents for Necrons, just doesn't feel very necron-y. However, that said I do very much like the idea of scarab swarms that stick around and cause havoc. Try this:
Scarabs: Scarabs are small, swarming insectile automata frequently found in necron tombs and starships. Equipped with gauss cutters for repair and maintenance, they can quickly make a mess of enemies.
A Scarab swarm functions as both an assault boat and a fighter with a movement range of 10cm. When a Scarab swarm executes a hit and run attack, do not remove it from play, as the scarabs latch on to the hapless vessel and will move with it, continuing to carve it up. In every subsequent ordnance phase the victim's turrets may fire again at the scarabs, and any surviving swarms will continue to attack. Scarab swarms are never removed from play unless they are destroyed.
Necron capital ships may launch one Scarab Swarm for every four starting hits. Instead of being replenished by a Reload Ordnance special order, each repair roll of a 6 may instead be used to replenish one swarm, to represent new scarabs being found and activated. Scarabs are not subject to fleet ordnance limits.
-
I like the idea of a newer, more fleshed out necron fleet, but I strongly suggest we wait until the next necron codex is released so we can observe their fluff updates.
-
What if scarab swarms were litterally just CAP? Or had an inbuilt effect like using turrets when boarding as boarding value (sounds kinda like tyranid spores). Hmm.. Other than copying the nid theme of little expendables floating about a ship I can't really see scarabs being used in BFG.
As an inbuilt effect I can see scarabs giving bonus's to boarding, ramming, turrets and possibly as part of the armour save (living metal save). This could be a refit... Hmm
Cheers,
RayB HA
-
Zelnik,
Any idea when that would be? :)
-
Rumours are already on warseer, so this year sometime.
-
Well the codex in this case means a lot, since the place of the c'tan will be different in the new fluff, as well as the necron lords themselves.
We already now that there was one "World Engine", which could use rules assuming more appear.
Let's wait and see before we start throwing new rules around.
-
Yeah, you should wait, rumor has it that our liege-lord will write it. If it is a Wardex then all our fluff will be immediately invalidated and we will have to start from scratch. And Emperor forbid he goes somewhere with the you-know-what campain. :'(
-
Well, there could be some radical changes. Just like with nids and how they travel through space!!!
However, other than some extreme change I can't see it invalidating the fleet list. I think it's worth the effort in the meantime.
Cheers,
RayB HA